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ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

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ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby norlaggan » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:22 pm

Islay off the east coast of Ireland! (and thefore Islay Whiskey)

Discuss:
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Spirit of Islay » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:02 pm

ImageImageImage
Only someone from Speyside where they don't know whisky.....

To answer your question in your Signature , VERY Unlucky !
Now if you lived on God's (aka Jim McEwan) Own Little Isle i'd say VERY Lucky.... :P
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Spirit of Islay » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:03 pm

norlaggan wrote:Islay off the east coast of Ireland! (and thefore Islay Whiskey)

Discuss:


It's North of Ireland by the way.....
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby LagaDrinker » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:05 pm

Spirit of Islay wrote:ImageImageImage


^^^ Says it all for me :D
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:30 pm

I'm afraid the only dispute over the sovereignty of Islay is whether it is Scottish or British.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Spirit of Islay » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:43 pm

Probably if you asked the good people of Islay Nick they'd say they were Ileachs first , Scottish Second :wink:
Fiercely Proud People ! And good people to know.....
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Willie JJ » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:29 pm

Bit of a strange question. Hard to see how you could portray Islay as Irish in any historical context for over 1000 years. Before that everything is rather speculative anyway.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Ganga » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:40 pm

Viking colony I say. :P
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby cathach » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:16 am

Willie JJ wrote:Bit of a strange question. Hard to see how you could portray Islay as Irish in any historical context for over 1000 years. Before that everything is rather speculative anyway.


Current historiography would put Islay and the other islands as belonging to the Lordship of the Isles (MacDomhnaill) during the late medieval/early modern period. This is a territorial unit that would have covered various parts of the northeast of Ireland, the Isles themselves and lands all over the north of Scotland.

Prior to the very late 1500s there is no word in Gaelic for a person form Scotland or Ireland, both are know as Gaedheal and others as Gall (foreigners).
Therefore you're talking about a cultural, linguistic and political community or contiguous area based around the Gaedhealacht or Gaelic speaking areas.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Kernow » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:42 am

Its all the BRITISH Isles anyway now.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:26 pm

"British Isles" is a geographical term, not a political one. Britain includes Great Britain (the larger part of Britain); Ireland; Ellan Vannin; the Scottish Islands and Brittany.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby fishboy » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:19 pm

cathach wrote:
Current historiography would put Islay and the other islands as belonging to the Lordship of the Isles (MacDomhnaill)


The current Lord of the Isles is the Duke of Rothesay, Charles Philip Arthur George Windsor (Prince and Great Steward of Scotland).

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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Kernow » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:35 pm

fishboy wrote:
cathach wrote:
Current historiography would put Islay and the other islands as belonging to the Lordship of the Isles (MacDomhnaill)


The current Lord of the Isles is the Duke of Rothesay, Charles Philip Arthur George Windsor (Prince and Great Steward of Scotland).

FB


Ah, so we all wrong so far it belongs to the Germans.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby fishboy » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:51 pm

Makes about as much sense as it being Irish. :wink:

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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:52 pm

Kernow wrote:
fishboy wrote:
cathach wrote:
Current historiography would put Islay and the other islands as belonging to the Lordship of the Isles (MacDomhnaill)


The current Lord of the Isles is the Duke of Rothesay, Charles Philip Arthur George Windsor (Prince and Great Steward of Scotland).

FB


Ah, so we all wrong so far it belongs to the Germans.

I thought he was Greek
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby fishboy » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:06 pm

Only half Greek I think.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby DavidH » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:41 pm

Nick Brown wrote:Britain includes Great Britain (the larger part of Britain); Ireland; Ellan Vannin; the Scottish Islands and Brittany.

When did 'Britain' ever include Ireland, either geographically or politically? I don't think this is correct.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby cathach » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:54 pm

fishboy wrote:
cathach wrote:
Current historiography would put Islay and the other islands as belonging to the Lordship of the Isles (MacDomhnaill)


The current Lord of the Isles is the Duke of Rothesay, Charles Philip Arthur George Windsor (Prince and Great Steward of Scotland).

FB


Just to be clear the Mac Domhnaill (McDonnell) Lordship of the Isles is what I was referring to. It was effectively extinguished as a political and military power in the 16th century by its overlord (urraí) the Scots King. The current title is a courtesy one revived I believe to give the Scots a greater sense of association with the Windsor monarchy.

So Islay and other parts of Scotland have gradually been incorporated into a lowland English political system in relatively recent times. Only finally being complete some historians would say with the Highland clearances of the mid-19th century.

Thats the historical point I'm making.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:59 pm

DavidH wrote:
Nick Brown wrote:Britain includes Great Britain (the larger part of Britain); Ireland; Ellan Vannin; the Scottish Islands and Brittany.

When did 'Britain' ever include Ireland, either geographically or politically? I don't think this is correct.

It's in Wikipedia, so it must be true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_(name)
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Kernow » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:01 pm

''It's in Wikipedia, so it must be true'' lol
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Iain » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:35 pm

Nick Brown wrote:Britain includes Great Britain (the larger part of Britain); Ireland; Ellan Vannin; the Scottish Islands and Brittany.



Welcome to Nick's world.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby DavidH » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:42 pm

Nick Brown wrote:
DavidH wrote:
Nick Brown wrote:Britain includes Great Britain (the larger part of Britain); Ireland; Ellan Vannin; the Scottish Islands and Brittany.

When did 'Britain' ever include Ireland, either geographically or politically? I don't think this is correct.

It's in Wikipedia, so it must be true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_(name)

Ah, to the Greeks we were all part of Βρεττανίαι. OK, I'll give you that :-)

But since the Romans, the name "Britain" has not been applied to Ireland.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Onefortheditch » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:59 pm

A lot of history is a horrible bloody mess and I'm very glad it's in the past. Islay ended up as part of Scotland and that's just fine by me.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:16 am

DavidH wrote:But since the Romans, the name "Britain" has not been applied to Ireland.

It has, as in the British Isles?

(It's a geographic term, not one pertaining to claims of sovereignty, and it definitely includes Ireland)
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby DavidH » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:35 am

Nick Brown wrote:
DavidH wrote:But since the Romans, the name "Britain" has not been applied to Ireland.

It has, as in the British Isles?

(It's a geographic term, not one pertaining to claims of sovereignty, and it definitely includes Ireland)

"British Isles" is an entirely different term which does include Ireland.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby IainB » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:03 pm

You could say that Scotland is off the coast of Ireland making all Scottish whisky Irish whiskey. Also you could say that Ireland is off the coast of Scotland making all Irish whiskey Scotch whisky.

In reality, as noted above, there was in the past very close links between the western highlands and islands and parts of Ireland - linguistic, cultural etc. They have moved part over time, though Irish and Scottish gaelic do remain remarkably close. In any event Islay's accent, Gaelic, culture and government is nowdays definitely Scottish.

Actually, why am I even saying this, I'm just stating the complete obvious. You can see, however, when you're standing on the southern coast of Islay how in the distant past, it really wouldn't have been that clearly defined - there are two large landmasses you can see with very little difference between the distance to either of them.

On the point of the "British Isles", I think a lot of Irish people would dispute that as a "geographical" term. It may have been used in the past by Britain but it would not be widely accepted here.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:31 pm

Yes, the Irish government has actually petitioned other countries and cartographers not to include us in the term "British Isles". Other people call us that, really. It is a confusing term. Some people in Ireland do use it still, of course, but they're in the minority.

It's so confusing that the BBC include Irish people from history in the Greatest Britons of All Time.

I don't think Britain includes any part of Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, rather than Britain.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:33 pm

And yes, Islay is definitely part of Ireland, and they are hundreds of years behind on their taxes. Pay up.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:36 pm

Aidan wrote:I don't think Britain includes any part of Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, rather than Britain.

Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain. But in order to have great Britain, you must have part of Britain that is not in the greater part.

I know people in Ireland dislike the term British Isles. That's because they mistakenly believe it to refer somehow to a claim of sovereignty by the UK. It doesn't. It refers to the fact that the islands constitute an archepeligo called Britain. It's like people in Canada denying that their country is part of America.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:56 pm

Nick Brown wrote:
Aidan wrote:I don't think Britain includes any part of Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, rather than Britain.

Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain. But in order to have great Britain, you must have part of Britain that is not in the greater part.

I know people in Ireland dislike the term British Isles. That's because they mistakenly believe it to refer somehow to a claim of sovereignty by the UK. It doesn't. It refers to the fact that the islands constitute an archepeligo called Britain. It's like people in Canada denying that their country is part of America.


I believe it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So If Northern Ireland is part of Britain, then it's the United Kingdom of Great Britain (including Northern Ireland) and Northern Ireland. Does not make sense.

I know it's different, but Rhodesia is no longer called Rhodesia. Why can't people just respect the Irish gov's wishes? It's not a hard thing to do.

I live in Ireland and have met many of its people. I don't know anyone who thinks the term "British Isles" is a claim of soverneignty. I'd prefer if we were not included under this term. But I can't stop people using it.

I'm not sure that Britain is a group of islands that includes Ireland either.

I've also found this

In 1947 Ireland's Department of External Affairs drafted a letter to the heads of all government departments...... The expression "British Isles" was "a complete misnomer and its use should be thoroughly discouraged"; it should be replaced "where necessary by Ireland and Great Britain."


Written Answers - Official Terms", Dáil Éireann - Volume 606 - 28 September 2005. In his response, the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs stated "The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status. The Government, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, does not use this term. Our officials in the Embassy of Ireland, London, continue to monitor the media in Britain for any abuse of the official terms as set out in the Constitution of Ireland and in legislation. These include the name of the State, the President, Taoiseach and others."
"New atlas lets Ireland slip shackles of Britain". The Times, London, 3 October 2006. A spokesman for the Irish Embassy in London said: "The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the Empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage."


Of course, just because I've found it doesn't make it the case, but interesting all the same.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Willie JJ » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:19 pm

Aidan wrote:I know it's different, but Rhodesia is no longer called Rhodesia. Why can't people just respect the Irish gov's wishes? It's not a hard thing to do.

You think you've got it tough? The majority of folk from abroad refer to the Scots as 'English' and when they are here they tell us how they are really enjoying their trip to England. :roll:
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby DavidH » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:01 pm

Nick Brown wrote:Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain. But in order to have great Britain, you must have part of Britain that is not in the greater part.

Yes, but it's Brittany that is "Little Britain", not Ireland.

I still see the term "British Isles" used in Ireland from time to time and it no more implies sovereignty than the "Irish Sea" or the "English Channel". But it is misleading and liable to misinterpretation and is probably better left unused.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby cathach » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:18 pm

Nick Brown wrote:Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain. But in order to have great Britain, you must have part of Britain that is not in the greater part


Indeed but it is the island itself that is Great Britain. The modern recognised political constituents are England, Scotland and Wales. In strict geographical terms Northern Ireland is part of the island of Ireland. The U.K. of Great Britain and Northern ireland is a political unit comprising the whole of the island of Great Britain and 1/6th of the island of Ireland.
The U.K. also comprises certain islands off the coast of Great Britain. However others, such as Guernsey, Jersey and Mann are not technically part of the U.K.

Some of the linguistic confusion linked with the ''Great'' may come from the older celtic languages in which Wales is 'An Bhreatain Bheag' i.e. small Britain. So in Gaelic at any rate the whole island can be termed 'An Bhreatain Mhór'. I make no claim to be a linguist in any case.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Ganga » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:27 pm

If you look at it geologically, they are break-away islands are from North America. :P
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Iain » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:32 pm

Re Nick's claim that "the islands constitute an archepeligo called Britain" - can anyone say who else calls the archipeligo "Britain"?

I've never seen it called that.
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