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ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:48 pm

Iain wrote:Re Nick's claim that "the islands constitute an archepeligo called Britain" - can anyone say who else calls the archipeligo "Britain"?

I've never seen it called that.


I was saying that earlier. I've never heard that.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Kernow » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:10 pm

British Isles
Archipelago off the northwest coast of Europe, consisting of Great Britain (England, Wales, and Scotland), Ireland, the Orkney and Shetland islands, the Isle of Man, and many other islands that are included in various counties, such as the Isle of Wight, Scilly Isles, Lundy Island, and the Inner and Outer Hebrides. The Channel Islands are often included in the definition, but are geographically closer to France. The British Isles are divided from Europe by the North Sea, Strait of Dover, and the English Channel, and face the Atlantic to the west. South West Cornwall and the break away island Islay.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:23 pm

Kernow wrote:British Isles
Archipelago off the northwest coast of Europe, consisting of Great Britain (England, Wales, and Scotland), Ireland, the Orkney and Shetland islands, the Isle of Man, and many other islands that are included in various counties, such as the Isle of Wight, Scilly Isles, Lundy Island, and the Inner and Outer Hebrides. The Channel Islands are often included in the definition, but are geographically closer to France. The British Isles are divided from Europe by the North Sea, Strait of Dover, and the English Channel, and face the Atlantic to the west. South West Cornwall and the break away island Islay.


Yes, there's no question that this is what people refer to when they talk about the British Isles, but that's not the point, really. It's weather it shoud be called the British Isles when Ireland does not want to be included in the term.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Iain » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:30 pm

[quote="Aidan
I was saying that earlier. I've never heard that.[/quote]

My atlases don't refer to an archipelago called Britain. And I can't find any reference via Google to the archipelago called Britain either.

In fact, I can't find any reference to Ireland being part of Britain politically or geographically. Even Queen Victoria claimed to be Queen of Great Britain AND Ireland.

Where is the evidence? I think we should be told! :iwbrnt:

Especially our bewildered Irish friends on the forums, who didn't realise they've been living in Britain all their lives!
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Ganga » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:31 pm

Since you guys are fighting over Ireland and Great Britian, I claim Islay. :shock: We are not part of either! :lol:
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Iain » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:41 pm

Ganga wrote:Since you guys are fighting over Ireland and Great Britian, I claim Islay. :shock: We are not part of either! :lol:


Who's fighting?

And can Californians lay claim to Islay? I mean, apart from the weather and the movie star glamour, what do you have in common?
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Ganga » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:50 pm

I didn't say California claims it. I claim it. :D
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby cathach » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:46 am

In that case: I claim the Anchor Brewing Company!!
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Ganga » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:17 am

Done deal. :D
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:12 am

Iain wrote:In fact, I can't find any reference to Ireland being part of Britain politically or geographically. Even Queen Victoria claimed to be Queen of Great Britain AND Ireland.

Where is the evidence? I think we should be told!

Suggest you read the whole thread then. You'd find you had been!

And since the term British Isles is not, and never has been, a political term, I'm not sure the Irish Government has any locus to tell people not to use it. Could they equally tell people not to use the word Europe if they wanted?
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:22 am

There just looking for a bit of respect on the issue. They can't make people give it, I suppose. If you want to call Ireland part of the British Isles, there's equally nothing I or anyone else can do about it.

The British can decide to call us Atlantus, I suppose, and there's nothing much we can do about it.

And, I don't know if they're right, but as quoted before ...

Written Answers - Official Terms", Dáil Éireann - Volume 606 - 28 September 2005. In his response, the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs stated "The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status.


According to this, the term "British Isles" is not... well, you can read it yourself.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby DavidH » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:19 am

Nick Brown wrote:
Iain wrote:In fact, I can't find any reference to Ireland being part of Britain politically or geographically. Even Queen Victoria claimed to be Queen of Great Britain AND Ireland.

Where is the evidence? I think we should be told!

Suggest you read the whole thread then. You'd find you had been!

Nowhere in this thread has it been shown that Ireland has ever been included in the term 'Britain'. In fact, the argument supports the exact opposite!
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:30 am

I'm not sure that Leinster is recognized in any legal or inter-governmental sense. I'm not sure it has any official status. But Leinster House has a nice ring to it.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:31 am

Nick Brown wrote:
DavidH wrote:
Nick Brown wrote:Britain includes Great Britain (the larger part of Britain); Ireland; Ellan Vannin; the Scottish Islands and Brittany.

When did 'Britain' ever include Ireland, either geographically or politically? I don't think this is correct.

It's in Wikipedia, so it must be true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_(name)
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:32 am

It sure does. But you're not sure.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby DavidH » Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:50 am

Nick, that Wikipedia page does not say that Ireland is part of Britain. We are not speaking ancient Greek here. 'Britain' is a modern English word with a particular meaning that has never encompassed Ireland. You might as well claim that England is part of Germany because the Angles came from Germany.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:19 am

Aidan wrote:It sure does. But you're not sure.


that's in reply to the Leinster House thing, rather than the next one. Not that it matters.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Iain » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:18 pm

Nick Brown wrote:
Iain wrote:In fact, I can't find any reference to Ireland being part of Britain politically or geographically. Even Queen Victoria claimed to be Queen of Great Britain AND Ireland.

Where is the evidence? I think we should be told!

Suggest you read the whole thread then. You'd find you had been!



Thanks for your very helpful advice - you'll be glad to hear I had already read the whole thread. And couldn't find any reference to support your dogged insistence that Britain includes Ireland.

But your subsequent posts are entertaining, even if I don't know what you're trying to get at now.

Stop digging, and have a wee lie down? You'll feel the better for it :D
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Swedish Chef » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:34 pm

Ganga wrote:Viking colony I say. :P

Give us back our island! :D
But our King is French and our Queen German, where the heck does that leave things. :lol: :P
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:49 pm

We if ye all want something interesting to talk about have a look at this .....

The story of a divided nation and a crooked pope ....

and make up your own minds about the Islay ... Ireland / Scotland issue ;-)

http://www.reformation.org/scotia.html

Image
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Kernow » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:00 pm

This still going? thought we settled this with it being a break away island from cornwall many post ago.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Le Jock Sportif » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:36 pm

Ha ha, this was some thread - I don't know if I should be resurrecting it but what the hey! :mrgreen:

Firstly I have to ask, does anyone know who first coined the term 'British Isles'? If it was a Brit cartographer of the auld Empire then I think the Irish have every right to have themselves removed from it - especially when you consider that Britannia itself ended at the Antonine and the majority of Scotland was dubbed Caledonia as opposed to Britannia or Hibernia.

Can spilled, worms everywhere. :smoke:
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:16 am

I think we can be pretty sure the Irish did not come up with the term "British Isles" originally.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:59 am

They're called the British Isles because that's the name of them. Sorry, Irish folks, with all due respect, just get over it. It isn't going to change, and harping on the matter just makes you look provincial.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:36 am

MrTattieHeid wrote:They're called the British Isles because that's the name of them. Sorry, Irish folks, with all due respect, just get over it. It isn't going to change, and harping on the matter just makes you look provincial.


I fail to see where the due respect is. That is the problem.

Written Answers - Official Terms", Dáil Éireann - Volume 606 - 28 September 2005. In his response, the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs stated "The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status.

Thankfully, some people graciously do not refer to us as being part of the British Isles. Not including us in the term is a very easy thing to do indeed. Like people have done for a long, long list of places.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:24 pm

Aidan wrote:I fail to see where the due respect is. That is the problem.

I agree, Aidan--that you see this as a matter of disrespect, when it is not, is exactly the problem. It's a widely-accepted geographical name, nothing more. There are centuries-old reasons that it exists, that have nothing to do with British colonialism. That's what Nick (I mean, Deactivated member 9) was getting at.

"The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status." That's correct. It's a geographical name. It's silly to say Ireland is not part of the British Isles; it simply denies geography, for (I assume) political and cultural reasons. Kind of like how Mexico is often (erroneously) excluded from North America. You might just as well deny being in the Atlantic Ocean. Hey, if you can come up with an alternate name for the whole archipelago that everyone will accept, fine. But I honestly think that's not going to happen, and your umbrage is both misplaced and futile.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:02 pm

I don't agree with you at all. I could give you a huge list of places that have changed their name. They are areas of land, like Yugoslavia. Out of respect, I don't think they shoujld be called Yugoslavia.

Here are some excerpts from wikipedia (I know no t the most reliable source).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Is ... ng_dispute

Although early variants of the term date back to Ancient Greek times, the term fell into disuse for over a millennium and was introduced into English in the late 16th or early 17th centuries by English and Welsh writers whose writings have been described as propaganda and politicized[5][6][7]. The term was not in wide use in Britain before at least the second half of the 17th century. The term was widely accepted from the late 18th century to at least the early 20th and problems with the term date mostly to the period after Irish independence.

And the respect issue is not about peole who use it in general, it's about people who would refuse not to use it. There is no reason not to change the term used. We are not asking for books to be burned.

Also, you used the word "harping". I'm not sure anyone is harping. I think we are just "discussing" it.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Le Jock Sportif » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:42 pm

MrTattieHeid wrote:They're called the British Isles because that's the name of them. Sorry, Irish folks, with all due respect, just get over it. It isn't going to change, and harping on the matter just makes you look provincial.


Wow! That was harsh sir. :shock: I don't agree in the slightest, and I have no idea why you would react to the discussion in this way. Surely if the former geographical term 'St George's Channel' can be changed to the 'Celtic Sea' through popular usage then the term British Isles can be resigned to the history books in a similar way? I mean, would it have been parochial of people to continue to call it the St George's Channel in the face of over-whelming popularity? Of course not - popular opinion does prevail in these matters and it looks like the whole 'British Isles' thing will end up in the bin eventually anyway.

No sense in imposing it where it isn't wanted.

Historically speaking, whoever named these island the British Isles was up a gum tree anyway. Consider that Brythonnic Celts only occupied two thirds of one island, while the rest were occupied by Gaels and Picts who clearly weren't and aren't Britons. The term British is historically about as relevant to the people of the north and west as Gaelic is to those of the south and east and I for one don't have a problem respecting that (probably because I consider myself to be a Gael and don't consider myself to be British at all.) I'm not anti-English, Welsh, Cornish or anything else, but I rather think that the cultures, languages and dialects of these islands are glazed over by the term British, and i find that the most narrow and parochial attitude of all. I mean, how dare anyone wish to enjoy the distinctions that make us special? Why don't we just ditch the term British for an even more sterile and therefore less 'provincial' term? Lets call ourselves the Euro-Islands and be done with it. :coffee:

Democratically speaking, the Irish have the luxury of defining the geographical term for their landmass if they so wish - just as whoever named it a British Isle in the first place was empowered to do so at the time.

...That's my take on it anyway.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:58 pm

Sorry, I was cut short there. Also, the British Government, at least when dealing with ireland, does not use the term. It has afforded us that respect. I cannot force others to do it. I can only mention it.

I am aware ireland is not part of Britain. I am aware that the term British Isles does not mean we are part of Britain.

Indonesia was once the Dutch East Indies. Spanish Sahara was changed to Western Sahara.

The Atlantic Ocean is an ocean. I don't know of any pollitical reason it's called the Atlantic Ocean.

America is a continent, not a small group of Islands. I believe that "America" is only a colloquial term for the USA, so saying Mexico is part of the American continent is different.

I mean no offence to British or German people when I say this, but if Hitler had won the war and decided to call these islands the German Isles, the term would not still exist today. Or if they were called the Stalin Islands for no other reason but Stalin was the dictator there, they would no longer be called so.

I'm not sure you have a real understanding of the issue.

I cannot understand why it would be so hard to change the term. It was given to use in a time we were occupied by another country - a terrible time in our history.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:00 pm

Of course I mean no disrespect to Britain when I say any of this. They are our closest friends in the world, even if we do want them to lose in the football and rugby...
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Le Jock Sportif » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:14 pm

Hmph, Aidan....Britain doesnae have a football or rugby team.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Aidan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:20 pm

Le Jock Sportif wrote:Hmph, Aidan....Britain doesnae have a football or rugby team.


You are, of course, correct. And I work in sports journalism for a national newspaper! A glaring error.

I got carried away. I mean England, of course.

We like when Scotland and Wales win.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Le Jock Sportif » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:44 pm

Aidan wrote:
Le Jock Sportif wrote:Hmph, Aidan....Britain doesnae have a football or rugby team.


You are, of course, correct. And I work in sports journalism for a national newspaper! A glaring error.

I got carried away. I mean England, of course.

We like when Scotland and Wales win.


England is welcome to the term Aidan, we just have a referendum to get through first. :wink:

(...bit of politics there, oh my! :shock: :lol: )
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Iain » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:16 pm

Aidan, I have great sympathy with your views but please stop arguing with Mr Tat.

It is unreasonable for an independent country and its citizens to dispute geographical terms that were imposed by a former colonial power.

As a resident of British North America, Mr Tat knows that very well.
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Re: ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

Postby Deactivated Member » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:53 pm

"British North America"? You mean Canada? As far as I know, that's the only territory that has been known by that name. I believe that term was coined specifically to differentiate the remaining colonies from the thirteen that broke away. I could be wrong. I do know that the confederation of Canada was validated by the British North America Act of 1867.

First, I will apologize for using the loaded word "harp". (There's another unintentional connotation there, but never mind!)

Second, I will say that you are certainly welcome to suggest an alternative name for the archipelago, and try to persuade people to use it. (And Jock, if it's not more "sterile", then what will it be? Anything remotely specific will be just as unfair as British Isles. I'll note also that not all of the inhabitants of the Caribbean islands are Caribs.) But you simply can't say "Please don't include us in that term," unless you intend to tow Ireland away somewhere. When people use that term, they are referring to an archipelago of which Ireland is a part.

The case of Mexico is not a matter of using the word America to mean the USA; it's a matter of excluding Mexico from North America for cultural, rather than geographic, reasons. Likewise, I think, that we consider Europe and Asia two separate continents, when they appear to me to be a single land mass.

Yugoslavia was a political and legal designation. That country no longer exists. I do occasionally hear "the former Yugoslav republics".

Thank you for making me think. I believe I have modified my position somewhat. If you wish, for whatever reason, to persuade the world to use a different name for that archipelago, there is no reason you shouldn't try. But I don't believe anyone has offered an alternative yet. I'll suggest Tafkatbi...The Archipelago Formerly Known As The British Isles.
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