ISLAY - Ireland Or Scotland?

[Deactivated Member]

...Or maybe we could just call it all Islay.

[Le Jock Sportif]

Nah you can't call it all Islay....Surely the universe would implode under the burden of the metaphysical paradox created when the first bottle of Littlemill rolls off the line with 'Single Islay Malt Scotch Whisky' on it?

[Deactivated Member]

When they pay the dowry. Let's see, with interest, that's...

[les taylor]

Hmph, Aidan....Britain doesnae have a football or rugby team.

Sorry Jock it does.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_Irish_Lions


And if you look at the badge it's quite united.

[Aidan]

Les, British and IRISH Lions! Britain doesn't have a rugby team.

I think you and me are suffering from the same thing.

[Le Jock Sportif]

From my perspective as an occasionally vocal nat, folk having no idea what Britain is anymore is good progress. Keep it up you two.

[Iain]

"British North America"? You mean Canada? As far as I know, that's the only territory that has been known by that name. I believe that term was coined specifically to differentiate the remaining colonies from the thirteen that broke away. I could be wrong. I do know that the confederation of Canada was validated by the British North America Act of 1867.

During the eighteenth century, long before the USA or Canada had been thought of, the British possessions in North America were commonly referred to as "British North America". After the Revolution, the Americans and even the Brits decided, quite sensibly, that the name was inappropriate, and it was no longer applied to US territory.

[I think this is something that rather slips between the cracks on Google, but you can read about British North America in the book by the eminent historian of Colonial America and the Revolution, Bernard Bailyn: "The Peopling of British North America".]

Anyway, the point is that the folks in the US objected to a geographical name that was no longer appropriate - their independent country was no longer "British". And that seems to me to be appropriate for the Irish living in the Republic. Their country occupies most of the island of Ireland, is independent, and certainly not British. Why should they accept that they live in the "British" Isles, any more than the Americans should have accepted after independence that they lived in "British" North America?

There's no problem calling the archipelago "the islands of Britain and Ireland" or something similar - it's more accurate for a start, and less irritating to patriotic citizens of the Republic.

So - what was the original question?

[irishwhiskeychaser]

Anyway, the point is that the folks in the US objected to a geographical name that was no longer appropriate - their independent country was no longer "British". And that seems to me to be appropriate for the Irish living in the Republic. Their country occupies most of the island of Ireland, is independent, and certainly not British. Why should they accept that they live in the "British" Isles, any more than the Americans should have accepted after independence that they lived in "British" North America?

There's no problem calling the archipelago "the islands of Britain and Ireland" or something similar - it's more accurate for a start, and less irritating to patriotic citizens of the Republic.

So - what was the original question?

After 2 pages of debate I think you have hit the nail on the head Iain ...

... however in a way I can see why this causes so much confusion. Ireland being such a small nation it is easy to amalganate us into the UK due to proximity & past history. The amount of people I have met that think this is true used to always amaze me but if they have no real interest in a small nation off the west cost of Europe there is no reason why they should know it as a matter of course ... and this is probably where the nub of problem lies ... the reason people do associate the entirity of the Brittish Isles as they do is because of the title itself being out there and in the main stream so the need is to re-educate and spread a bit of our own propaganda


Foot note:

The word propaganda is not neccessairly a bad word as a lot of people seem to associate

Propaganda is the dissemination of information aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of people.

[MacDeffe]

I just wonder why the two big Islands of the coast of France is named after it's north-west part (Bretagne)

*runs away and hides*

MacDeffe

[Deactivated Member]

I don't think it's the same at all! The name "British North America" described British possessions in North America, whose boundaries changed over time, as the Brits occupied and relinquished territory. When the US was no longer a British possession, it no longer applied to them. But the British Isles is a geographical term, with, as has been established, no legal or governmental weight; its boundaries are geographical (and therefore unchanging), not political. It doesn't mean the whole of the archipelago is under British rule, any more than the name Grand-Bretagne implies that Great Britain is under Breton rule--It would remain the name even if Scotland and Wales were entirely independent. If you want a different name, fine, and I'll accept your arguments for not liking it, but you can't use political reasons to claim that the geographical term doesn't include Ireland. Of course Ireland is not part of Great Britain; but like it or not, it is part of the British Isles, until you can convince everyone to use a different name. That is, for better or worse, the name geographers and cartographers have long agreed to use.

Now let's talk about something a little less inflammatory...like "Londonderry" on Irish passports.

[Aidan]

I don't think it's the same at all! The name "British North America" described British possessions in North America, whose boundaries changed over time, as the Brits occupied and relinquished territory. When the US was no longer a British possession, it no longer applied to them. But the British Isles is a geographical term, with, as has been established, no legal or governmental weight; its boundaries are geographical (and therefore unchanging), not political. It doesn't mean the whole of the archipelago is under British rule, any more than the name Grand-Bretagne implies that Great Britain is under Breton rule--It would remain the name even if Scotland and Wales were entirely independent. If you want a different name, fine, and I'll accept your arguments for not liking it, but you can't use political reasons to claim that the geographical term doesn't include Ireland. Of course Ireland is not part of Great Britain; but like it or not, it is part of the British Isles, until you can convince everyone to use a different name. That is, for better or worse, the name geographers and cartographers have long agreed to use.

Now let's talk about something a little less inflammatory...like "Londonderry" on Irish passports.

Actually, it was not a term originally coined just to define a geographical feature. It was put in place firmly to indicate the influence of Britain over these islands - an influence it no longer has. And many cartographers and dictionaries do not use the term to refer to these islands.

I think you're just arguing for the sake of it at this stage.

[Deactivated Member]

Honestly, no....

And many cartographers and dictionaries do not use the term to refer to these islands.

And what term do they use?

[Ganga]

When they pay the dowry. Let's see, with interest, that's...

Wasn't the dowry the Hebrides?

[Aidan]

Honestly, no....

And many cartographers and dictionaries do not use the term to refer to these islands.

And what term do they use?

I think there are a few different ones, but mostly (amongst those who do not use "British Isles") it's Britain and Ireland. The British Government use the term "these islands" in their dealings with the irish Government. There are also lesser used terms like "the Anglo-Celtic archipelligo".

Issues with the term British Isles in relation to Ireland have been recognized in the UK and there is evidence that its use has been increasingly avoided in recent years in some fields of use, such as by cartographers and in some academic work, such as Norman Davies' history of Britain and Ireland called "The Isles".

[Iain]

If you want a different name, fine, and I'll accept your arguments for not liking it

Well, that seems a nice conciliatory way to end this heated wee discussion.

[Aidan]

If you want a different name, fine, and I'll accept your arguments for not liking it

Well, that seems a nice conciliatory way to end this heated wee discussion.

I hope it was never heated, but on behalf of myself, Ian and the rest of the people of the Anglo-Celtic Archipelligo...

[Iain]

[quote="Aidan
I hope it was never heated, but on behalf of myself, Ian and the rest of the people of the Anglo-Celtic Archipelligo...[/quote]

[Le Jock Sportif]

Couldn't it be Celto-Anglic? I mean...We were here first?

[Ganga]

Would you like to add in the others, such as Romano?

[Deactivated Member]

I think there are a few different ones, but mostly (amongst those who do not use "British Isles") it's Britain and Ireland.

...and Man and Wight and Orkney and Shetland and Scilly and Inner, Outer, Upper, and Downer Hebrides and...

The British Government use the term "these islands" in their dealings with the irish Government.

"Those islands" everywhere else. (That'll look good on a map.)

There are also lesser used terms like "the Anglo-Celtic archipelligo".

I could live with "the Anglo-Celtic Isles"--the best of an unsatisfactory lot, in my mind. It would seem to ignore the Pictish and Scandinavian heritage, though.

I thank you gentlemen for the discussion, and for enlightening me to a matter of some sensitivity, to which I had previously given little thought. It's possible you will have saved me some embarrassment, the next time I'm slogging Guinness in Galway or somewhere. We in the colonies are easily confused by the seemingly nebulous terms Britain, Great Britain, UK, etc, and as a Scot attested above, there are those who simply call the whole mess "England". So you see, it could be worse, and in fact often is.

Now let us get back to arguing about Blended Malts.

[Aidan]

Mr T, you'd be fine calling it the British Isles while pinting in Galway. Afterall, many Irish people use the term. Just don't call GB "the mainland"!

And speaking of Galway, on the Arran Islands, they call refer to Ireland as "the big island".

[Iain]

It's possible you will have saved me some embarrassment, the next time I'm slogging Guinness in Galway or somewhere. We in the colonies are easily confused by the seemingly nebulous terms Britain, Great Britain, UK, etc, and as a Scot attested above, there are those who simply call the whole mess "England". So you see, it could be worse, and in fact often is.

Now let us get back to arguing about Blended Malts.

And we should all remember, should we ever find ourselves sipping our blended malts in Port Stanley on the Falklands, not to comment loudly on the fine weather we've been having recently in the Malvinas

[DavidH]

I could live with "the Anglo-Celtic Isles"--the best of an unsatisfactory lot, in my mind.

I object to the Celts claiming any jurisdiction over Ireland.

[Deactivated Member]

And speaking of Galway, on the Arran Islands, they call refer to Ireland as "the big island".

"The Big Island" would conjure Hawaii around here. In both Orkney and Shetland, the largest island of the archipelago is called Mainland. Not to be confused with "the mainland", which would be Scotland. Which is on an island.

Thinking about this conversation last night, I remembered my good friend Marc, of Quebec City. I've always taken an interest in Canadian history and politics, so it's inevitable that he and I would have many arguments over political and cultural issues. He always takes the francophone position, and I counter with the anglophone arguments. And yet, when I am in other parts of Canada, I find myself arguing Marc's points to English-speaking Canadians. It's not so much that I like to argue; it's just that I am naturally inclined to look on the other side of the coin all the time. Once, when Marc rendered an opinion about something, and I reflexively took the counterpoint, he became very exasperated and said, "Every time I say something, you contradict me!" Of course, I answered, "No, I don't."

So that's what you've been dealing with. Undoubtedly, somewhere, sometime, some poor Englishman is going to have to listen to me rant about why the expression "the British Isles" is outdated, inaccurate, and insensitive. Then I will come back here and tell you guys to "get over it" again.

[Aidan]

A healthy attitude, I think. Keeps everyone thinking about what they are saying. It's good for people to question things.

[irishwhiskeychaser]

... the next time I'm slogging Guinness in Galway ...

Be sure to drop me a line and we can share a few if your in the area

[Aidan]

An anniversary...Ireland has been a republic for 60 years, as of the day before yesterday.

[irishwhiskeychaser]

An anniversary...Ireland has been a republic for 60 years, as of the day before yesterday.

Should that not be in the Happy Birthday thread

[Deactivated Member]

Well it might be...it was me dear old mum's 83rd. She's three days older than Queen Elizabeth II, who's 83 today (the 21st), and who I know is very dear to your Irish hearts.

[Iain]

As a postscript -

when I went to the Mull of Oa, my mobile phone switched to Vodaphone Ireland and I got a message informing me of the switch and hoping I would have "a pleasant stay" there.

And I couldn't get the signal for the Scottish Televison channel in my B&B in Port Ellen, only its Northern Ireland equivalent, Ulster TV.

The Irish are taking over the Islay airwaves!

[irishwhiskeychaser]

The Irish are taking over the Islay airwaves!

We took over a long time ago but we just let ye use it with out issue

[Pure Pot Head]

What a fascinating thread - I'm sorry everyone here made friends in the end. It was getting really entertaining. Can we get it up and running again?