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Dear Toronto

General chat and talk about whisky.

Dear Toronto

Postby PuckJunkie » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:24 pm

Completely off-topic and perhaps wildly inappropriate for the forum in its entirety, but there seem to be a number of people here from Toronto and I thought maybe you could help me send a message to the people of TO and environs: In the future, we here in Dallas would prefer if you kept your washed-up injury-prone prima donna goons to yourself. Seriously, couldn't you guys come to terms with this guy? He loves Toronto!

Well, at least he's cheap. Although how I will ever stomach watching Eric Lindros in a Dallas Stars jersey is beyond me.

Sincerely,
Puck
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Postby Frodo » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:01 am

Hi Puck:

I have two responces...

1) He's a free agent because the JFJ (general manager) didn't want him very much. There are rumblings that several players are not thrilled with our new GM. Mats Sundin sold his house in TO in the last year of his contract which is as close as Mats gets to saying he's unhappy (he'll never actually say it). He leads by example, depending on others in the dressing room to hold team members accountable. People like Gary Roberts (gone last year), Tie Domi (bought out), and Eric Lindros (signed in Dallas). Mats has never played with true #1 line wingers for much of his stay here, and all this adds up to lack of support.

Add the rumor that the GM threatened Mats with withholding salary if he didn't come back immediatly after playing in the Olympics, and the tasteless way the Tie Domi buyout happened, I think Eric may feel that this team is not being run very well, thus is looking to move on. Oh, and the way the coach had one sub-par year in 7 and he's fired!

2) My sence is that Eric has some gas in his tank left. When he was healthy last year, he had a noticable impact on the games that I watched! Yes, his health is always going to be a question mark. But the leadership that he brings with him to the dressing room is also part of the equation.

So yes, I think the signing is a risk - $2m for a player that is injury prone is a lot. But there is also upside too. If Eric can play 60 games relativly healthy, he'll have an impact! And he's no 3-4th line winger either!!!
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Postby Elliot » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:35 am

From Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie, "The Toronto Song":

I hate the SkyDome and the CN Tower too;
I hate Nathan Philips Square and the Ontario Zoo!
The rent's too high,
The air's unclean,
The beaches are dirty,
And the people are mean!
And the women are big and the men are dumb
And the children are loopy 'cause they live in a slum!
The water is polluted and the mayor's a dork!
They dress real bad and they think they're New York...
In Toronto . . . !
Ontario . . . oh-oh!


"You know . . . now that I think about it, I pretty much hate all of Ontario!"
"Yeah! Me too!"


I hate Thunder Bay and Ottawa,
Kitchener, Windsor, and Oshawa!
London sucks and the Great Lakes suck,
And Sarnia sucks and Turkey Point sucks!


I took a trip to Ontario to visit Brian Mulroney!
He beat me up and he stole my pants
And he put me in a tree!
I went to see the Maple Leafs
And got hit in the head with a puck.


"Uh I don't even know how they did it . . . I mean, I was playin' the organ at the time!"

--------------------------------------------

Allez les Canadiens!
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Postby PuckJunkie » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:24 am

Frodo: Good news: $1.5 million + $1 million in achievement-based bonuses. Unless he stays healthy, he'll make less here than he did in Toronto. Bad news: how often does Big E play 60 games? But if he's healthy, he's clearly the Stars' second line center. He was signed to replace Arnott. If he actually does that, I'll try to ignore the fact I hated the Legion of Doom with every fiber of my being.

Sorry about your new GM. I've been watching attentively, and if he doesn't get his act together he'll be the new punching bag of the hockey world with O'Connell gone from Boston now. Nobody should treat a player like Mats Sundin like that. Domi, now... well... ;)

Elliot: Ouch. Just... ouch.

Puck
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Postby pouranother » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:54 am

Puck, I'm surprised at you. I thought for sure somebody who appreciates the beauty of a fine malt, would be able to appreciate the beauty of fine hockey line...The Legion of Doom. That line was probably the most dominant line ever assembled, not just from a scoring stand point, but the way they dominated physically. Lindros and Leclair were the real horses the RW was almost interchangeable. Anyway, if he's got any game left he's worth it, if not, Carl and Bonnie can be a real pain in the ***.

Yes, Im a Flyer fan and I was a big Lindros fan in his early days.
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Postby MGillespie » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:20 am

At the risk of gloating...I'm just glad the sorry-ass crybaby's not in Philly any more, but having him in Dallas means we'll only get to boo him once a year! ;)

By the way, Puck...enjoy his parents..they're a hoot!

Mark
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Postby PuckJunkie » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:26 pm

Gee thanks, Mark.

pouranother, I can appreciate a fine hockey line... say, Gretzky, Kurri, Anderson? Beliveau, Moore, & Boom-Boom? Or the Production Line. Or my personal favorite, Lehtinen-Modano-Hull :)

Watching the Legion of Doom simply reminded me every time I saw them that Eric Lindros was a gifted puck mover with unbelievable tools who nevertheless chose to play like a common thug. Not that I was disposed to like someone who started his career the way he did anyway, and I already hated the Flyers from the days of the Broad Street Bullies. I'm not a big fan of goon-it-up hockey.

Since his sixth or seventh concussion, Lindros has eased up a lot - Rangers fans accused him of floating in the periphery because he was worried about his melon. For the past few years he's been more irrelevant than hated, but signing him still leaves an off taste in my mouth.

Nothing some Lagavulin won't wash out, not to worry.

Puck

P.S. I forgot to chastise you for so casually dismissing Renberg. Not as glamorous as Big E or Leclair, but he was a very gifted player.
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Postby MGillespie » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:08 pm

PuckJunkie wrote:Gee thanks, Mark.

Watching the Legion of Doom simply reminded me every time I saw them that Eric Lindros was a gifted puck mover with unbelievable tools who nevertheless chose to play like a common thug. Not that I was disposed to like someone who started his career the way he did anyway, and I already hated the Flyers from the days of the Broad Street Bullies. I'm not a big fan of goon-it-up hockey.

Since his sixth or seventh concussion, Lindros has eased up a lot - Rangers fans accused him of floating in the periphery because he was worried about his melon. For the past few years he's been more irrelevant than hated, but signing him still leaves an off taste in my mouth.


Exactly...Lindros is the poster child for wasted potential. He had the ability to change the game with his combination of size, speed, and puck-handling skills, but wasted it by playing like a thug, taking games off for the slightest injuries and letting Carl and Bonnie fight his battles with the front office. To the Lindros family, everything could be blamed on the coaches, the front office, the trainers, or the doctors, yet poor Eric never took the heat for anything.

The LoD line was one of the better modern lines in hockey, but it doesn't compare to the great ones from the past that you mentioned.

Irrelevant describes him perfectly...Hall of Fame-level talent once, but no longer...

Mark
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Postby Frodo » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:18 pm

MGillespie wrote:Irrelevant describes him perfectly...Hall of Fame-level talent once, but no longer...

Mark


I dunno. If you're expecting a superstar imact player who can dominate a game consistently, Eric is no longer that player. My question is...is he worth what Dallas signed him for. My answer would be a cautious yes!
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Postby Frodo » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:22 pm

PuckJunkie wrote:Nobody should treat a player like Mats Sundin like that. Domi, now... well...)

Puck


Well Domi has fought most of the Leaf battles that needed fighting for a long time in addition to being a good guy in the community and a leader in the dressing room. Given Tie's length of service in Toronto and the fact that the Leafs aren't going anywhere but down, and the fact that the money gained from his buyout won't go to someone who's going to put the Leafs over the top, I say let him have one last season.

Bah! The Leafs should have traded vets for prospects and draft picks and kept Tie around to provide stability.
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Postby MGillespie » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:15 pm

Agreed...Domi's been in Toronto long enough that he should have been given the chance to retire as a Leaf when he was ready...

Mark
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Postby PuckJunkie » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:53 pm

Well, I can admit that when it came to effectiveness, the Legion of Doom was a better line than Modano's line on the 1999 Cup team. But that doesn't mean I liked watching them.

I was joking about Domi, just cashing in on his reputation as a player people love to hate. While other hard-nosed players seem to have crossed the line too many times to keep from actually hating them (C. Lemieux, Marchment come to mind), and sometimes even add personal walking disaster area to the mix (Fleury), Domi has always been that very solid player that people hate to play against but respect off the ice. He's precisely the kind of player Dallas has lacked for a few seasons - since Verbeek left - although with Barnaby's signing I suppose they're changing that a bit (minus the respectability!). And he's a tough SOB too.

Puck
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Postby MGillespie » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:03 am

The one thing that comes to mind with guys like Domi and Ulf Samuelsson is a line I've heard several times...you hate these guys when they come to town, but if they're playing for your team, you love them...

Mark
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Postby pouranother » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:25 am

I wasn't dismissing Renberg, I always liked him and was disappointed when he was traded to Tampa in the Chris Gratton fiasco. I'm just saying that Lindros and Leclair also made Keith Jones look good as well as Trent Klatt and Danius Zubrus look goog albeit for the short time they were on his line while Renberg was hurt or gone. I don't think their point production was a good as the line you mentioned but I think that the way they cycled the puck and wore teams out in addition to scoring made them a real force.

To clarify a couple of other things, althogh a fan of Lindros in his early days, it was wasted potential, and did somebody use Lindros and Leadership in the same sentence?

Domi should have been able to retire a Leaf.

Garth Snow is the new Islanders GM :shock:
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Postby pouranother » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:36 am

Just to keep it real, Glenmorangie or Dalwhinnie for hot, summer days?
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Postby MGillespie » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:43 am

pouranother wrote:
Garth Snow is the new Islanders GM :shock:


Great line I heard today...they're going to put a red light behind his desk and turn it on every five minutes so he'll feel at home!

Mark
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Postby pouranother » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:07 am

Do you think Garth's business suits will have those huge shoulder pads? ala 1997.
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Postby Frodo » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:14 pm

MGillespie wrote:
pouranother wrote:
Garth Snow is the new Islanders GM :shock:


Great line I heard today...they're going to put a red light behind his desk and turn it on every five minutes so he'll feel at home!

Mark


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Frodo » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:16 pm

pouranother wrote:...and did somebody use Lindros and Leadership in the same sentence?


I did. He seemed to step up over here when the Leafs had a leadership void due to injury. Leadership both on and off the ice!
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Postby PuckJunkie » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:30 pm

MGillespie wrote:
pouranother wrote:
Garth Snow is the new Islanders GM :shock:


Great line I heard today...they're going to put a red light behind his desk and turn it on every five minutes so he'll feel at home!

Mark

I literally couldn't breathe for a minute I was laughing so hard. That is an all-time classic.

When I read the news yesterday about the Islanders, I was still trying to decide why they had fired Smith after 40 whole days (time for a fresh face?) when I got to who his replacement was. This guy was playing goal - poorly - just a few months ago! No front office experience at all, and straight to head GM?! It's like Wang is deliberately trying to make them a laughingstock. As if Yashin's contract didn't get that ball rolling years ago.

Puck

P.S. pouranother... Dalwhinnie.
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Postby pouranother » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:43 am

Frodo wrote:
pouranother wrote:...and did somebody use Lindros and Leadership in the same sentence?


I did. He seemed to step up over here when the Leafs had a leadership void due to injury. Leadership both on and off the ice!


Stop! You're killing me :D You're talking about the same man that skipped out the back during the 97 finals? I need a drink.
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Postby MGillespie » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:07 am

Pour's right...the only thing Lindros and Leadership have in common is that they both start with the letter "L"...

To be honest, it's not all his fault...Bobby Clarke should never have made Lindros the captain so early in his career. He just wasn't mature enough to handle it at that point. Compare him to his contemporaries (Messier, Yzerman, Sakic, etc.) and he just doesn't meet the test...

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Postby Frodo » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:54 pm

Yeah, I think it was clear that Clarkie tried to force the timetable when Eric was going to be "the next one". See what happened during an Olympic year when Clarke made Lindros captain over Mess or Gretz. Eric didn't ask for this, and who the hell wants the kind of pressure Clarke heaped on Eric?

I'm not sure what kind of leader Eric was in the past. I've hears that when Eric was with the Flyers, he let Keith Premieu stay with him at his house. Maybe not leadership but unselfish. And given the Flyers perpensity to hurry Eric back from concussions and the issue of the plane (Eric had bleeding in his lungs - wasn't caught by the medical staff)...All I have to say is from my perspective the Flyers paid Eric top dollar and EXPECTED the "next one" without letting Eric grow in his own way. And when this didn't happen the Flyers PUSHED. I think that's when the parents got involved. If I was a Flyer, I wouldn't trust the team medical staff as far as I could throw them.

I didn't follow Eric in Philly, but in Toronto, he was productive when healthy, seemed to be a good asst captain, and showed leadership on and off the ice. And don't forget in TO, we're used to Mats, Killer (Gilmore), and Wendel as captains so our bar is quite high!

PJ, if you're concerned that Eric hasn't grown up, I think you may be in for a plesant suprise! On the other hand, if you're still expecting "the next one", I think you'll be dissapointed.
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Postby Frodo » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:56 pm

PuckJunkie wrote:
MGillespie wrote:
pouranother wrote:
Garth Snow is the new Islanders GM :shock:


Great line I heard today...they're going to put a red light behind his desk and turn it on every five minutes so he'll feel at home!

Mark

I literally couldn't breathe for a minute I was laughing so hard. That is an all-time classic.

When I read the news yesterday about the Islanders, I was still trying to decide why they had fired Smith after 40 whole days (time for a fresh face?) when I got to who his replacement was. This guy was playing goal - poorly - just a few months ago! No front office experience at all, and straight to head GM?! It's like Wang is deliberately trying to make them a laughingstock. As if Yashin's contract didn't get that ball rolling years ago.

Puck


Yeah, I just heard about this. Poor long island fans. At least they've got a good coach thanks to Smith hireing Ted Nolan. This guy should have been hired long ago!!!

PS Who replaces a veteran GM with someone days removed from their playing career?
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Postby pouranother » Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:22 pm

I think Garth still counts against the Isles salary cap. Thats a weird one. Can he trade himself to make cap room?

As far as Lindros goes, I hope he does well in Dallas. He's clearly not the player he once was or might have been. But, he can probably be a good 2nd or 3rd line center, and in that role, maybe leadership and experience will be his strength.
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Postby PuckJunkie » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:15 pm

pouranother wrote:I think Garth still counts against the Isles salary cap. Thats a weird one. Can he trade himself to make cap room?

As far as Lindros goes, I hope he does well in Dallas. He's clearly not the player he once was or might have been. But, he can probably be a good 2nd or 3rd line center, and in that role, maybe leadership and experience will be his strength.

LOL He does count against the cap! $750K for the next two years to finish out the three-year contract he just signed last off-season.

Lindros will be fine as a 2nd line center as long as he's healthy. If they get 50-60 games out of him and 40 points or more, and he's playing come playoff time, it's a great move. He's too fragile to play on a checking line here, though. With recent signings the Stars are finally able to throw out some fairly talented and very mean third and fourth line players; if he's not playing on the second line then the reward wasn't worth the risk.

Frodo; it wasn't just Clarke that heaped the pressure on him. It was everyone. After the trade the Flyers made to get Lindros, nothing short of actually being "the Next One" would have fulfilled the expectations that trade set. The Flyers got one player - Lindros. Quebec got Peter Forsberg, Ron Hextall, Chris Simon, Mike Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, two first round picks (1993, 1994), and fifteen million dollars in cash. Minnesota's deal for Herschel Walker looks good in comparison. And those two first-round picks were Nolan Baumgartner and Jocelyn Thibault - the goalie who was later packaged with Rucinsky and Kovalenko to get Patrick Roy and Mike Keane. The Lindros trade, more than any other group of factors, is the reason why Colorado had a powerhouse team for a decade.

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Postby MGillespie » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:47 pm

PuckJunkie wrote:Frodo; it wasn't just Clarke that heaped the pressure on him. It was everyone. After the trade the Flyers made to get Lindros, nothing short of actually being "the Next One" would have fulfilled the expectations that trade set. The Flyers got one player - Lindros. Quebec got Peter Forsberg, Ron Hextall, Chris Simon, Mike Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, two first round picks (1993, 1994), and fifteen million dollars in cash. Minnesota's deal for Herschel Walker looks good in comparison. And those two first-round picks were Nolan Baumgartner and Jocelyn Thibault - the goalie who was later packaged with Rucinsky and Kovalenko to get Patrick Roy and Mike Keane. The Lindros trade, more than any other group of factors, is the reason why Colorado had a powerhouse team for a decade.

Puck


And it's one of the biggest reasons why the Flyers have never really been in contention for a Cup ever since...including 1997...

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Postby MGillespie » Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:51 pm

Frodo wrote:
Yeah, I just heard about this. Poor long island fans. At least they've got a good coach thanks to Smith hireing Ted Nolan. This guy should have been hired long ago!!!

PS Who replaces a veteran GM with someone days removed from their playing career?


Days...how about minutes? ;)
And you're right about Ted Nolan...IMHO, it's a sign of the racism that still exists in hockey today that the only successful Native coach in the NHL had to spend eight years unemployed after the Sabres ran him off. Even if he was a GM-killer...it's fair to say that most white coaches who have done something similar wind up back in the coaching ranks a lot sooner (look under Keenan, Mike in the encyclopedia!). It took a minority owner to bring Ted back into the game...

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Postby Frodo » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:34 pm

I agree with you completely Mark!!! I think it was part of the "old boys network" who allied with Muckler that was part of it. Horay for Nolan - even if he gets (unfairly) sacked by Snow for not being "his" man.
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Postby Frodo » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:36 pm

PuckJunkie wrote:Frodo; it wasn't just Clarke that heaped the pressure on him. It was everyone. After the trade the Flyers made to get Lindros, nothing short of actually being "the Next One" would have fulfilled the expectations that trade set. The Flyers got one player - Lindros. Quebec got Peter Forsberg, Ron Hextall, Chris Simon, Mike Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, two first round picks (1993, 1994), and fifteen million dollars in cash.
Puck


Yup. Agree with all that! But keep in mind that teams were lining up to get Lindros even at that steep price!
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Postby PuckJunkie » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:56 pm

Mark, I can't speak to the existence of any racism geared toward native Americans in the hockey ranks, but I think it's unfair to characterize the ending of his Buffalo career as "the Sabres ran him off". Regier offered Nolan an extension but he chose not to take it; they offered him the job in Tampa Bay that year and he turned it down; and the next year the Islanders offered him their head coaching job and he turned them down too. So it's not really that it took a minority owner to bring Ted Nolan back into the game; it just took Nolan actually accepting an offer. It's not hard to imagine that having a reputation for being impossible to work with for both players (Hasek) and GMs (Muckler), and turning down three head coaching jobs in two years, may have given people a reason to look elsewhere without any regard for his race.

Keep in mind this isn't someone with Keenan's resume, either; it's a coach who showed great promise with a sub-par team and thus won the Jack Adams once, but he still has only two years of experience as a head coach (only three coaching in the NHL at all) and one playoff series win. Keenan has a reputation as a jerk, sure, but he has over fifteen seasons of head coaching experience and five Finals appearances with two Cup rings. That's going to get you some offers.

Frodo, I don't think you need to worry about Nolan getting fired. By all accounts Wang's listening to Nolan as much if not more than he's listening to his GM.

Puck
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Postby MGillespie » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:07 pm

I stand corrected...but remember reading an article about him several years ago in which the racism angle was a key element...

Mark
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Postby Deactivated Member » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:51 am

First-pick Lindros refused to sign with Quebec City and forced the trade. In so doing, he brought a Cup to Colorado.

Anyone who thinks he's too good for QC is an idiot.
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Postby Frodo » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:04 am

PuckJunkie wrote:...but I think it's unfair to characterize the ending of his Buffalo career as "the Sabres ran him off". Regier offered Nolan an extension but he chose not to take it; they offered him the job in Tampa Bay that year and he turned it down; and the next year the Islanders offered him their head coaching job and he turned them down too...
Puck


Amazing memory Puck! Keep in mind that the Sabers only offered a ONE yr extention for someone who just won the "coach of the year" award - he was right to turn that down. And as for the Long Island and Tampa jobs, not very many experianced coaches went for those. I don't blame his for looking elsewhere! This was a coach who helped his team overfunction. There should have been a market for him I think...
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Postby PuckJunkie » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:15 pm

Frodo wrote:Amazing memory Puck! Keep in mind that the Sabers only offered a ONE yr extention for someone who just won the "coach of the year" award - he was right to turn that down. And as for the Long Island and Tampa jobs, not very many experianced coaches went for those. I don't blame his for looking elsewhere! This was a coach who helped his team overfunction. There should have been a market for him I think...

To be honest, my memory is sufficient only enough for me to look up the details. ;) You're right about his excellent job with the Sabres that year, though. I remember being very impressed - the Sabres simply weren't that good a team, he really had them playing over their heads.

Mark - You shouldn't take my comments to mean I would rule out racism completely. But I think much of the racism talk comes from the incident when he was berated by an opposing crowd with racially-oriented taunts. On the other hand, it's difficult for someone living where I do to even consider racism against native Americans. There are so few living here - even in Oklahoma, where I'm originally from - that there's just no real problem with it in the area. Or (just as likely) there's a problem, but it gets zero attention since it impacts so few people.

Puck
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