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IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

General chat and talk about whisky.

IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Deactivated Member » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:36 pm

When anyone on this forum complains about a new whisky being over-priced at retail, someone will inevitably come back the retort that "if you think the price is too high, don't buy it".

Ultimately, or course, demand and supply will dictate whether any single bottling sells at any given price point.

But there are two other important points to consider.

Retailer reaction
-------------------
Retailers want a profit. But they want more than that. They want a quick return on capital. A whisky that shelf-sits for a year or eighteen months doesn't give that quick return. So, short-term greediness by distillers might ultimately back-fire on them, with retailers refusing to stock certain lines.

Customer reaction
---------------------
To drinks companies, consumer 'brand loyalty' is everything. They want jo-public buying their expressions each and every time that they purchase whisky. So, again, short-term greediness might back-fire on them, with customers becoming disengaged because of crazy prices.
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Kernow » Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:45 pm

thankgod for supermarket deals thread :thumbsup:
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Spirit of Islay » Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:07 pm

No Need to Shout !

The chickens are coming home to roost with the price rises , i was told nearly a year ago off several producers that the prices have been artificially low (mainly due to supermarkets but other factors came into it as well ) and they needed to rise to meet the higher costs the industry was getting hit with , yes i can here you saying "Well they would say that...." but i saw invoices for oil from early 2007 and from the end of 2007 and they had nearly doubled ! Barley had doubled in the same period .
I've never said "If you think the price is too high , don't buy it!" (See no need to shout....) but i have said "No one forces you to buy it !" :D
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Deactivated Member » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:09 pm

Spirit of Islay

By your comment "no need to shout", I assume that you mean my putting thread headers in capitals. Apologies. My work asks for e-mail subject headers to be in caps. It's just become second nature.

Yes, I've been reading recently of steep rises in barley prices. Also, we've all felt the impact of oil price hikes.
Of course, distillers need to meet this expendiure now and not in 10 years time. So, they need extra income now.

So, your points are extremely well made.

But I still think that some bottlings just 'take the mick'. Perhaps distillers could perhaps 'spread the pain' somewhat more evenly. Also, target the ultra-premium end of the market more -as I'm guessing that most of its disciples will be somewhat less price sensitive.
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Spirit of Islay » Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:25 pm

eelbrook , i think what a lot of people need to take into account on this forum is perspective . Yes they may think that the Renaissance and Blasda (for example ) is expensive , it may be from their point of view but not from others , again you could say the same about Laddie bottlings but others wouldn't .
I think that the current offering from Springbank at Oddbins is expensive (as are most Springbanks imho but that's beyond the point....) , others don't but the main difference is that i don't pop up on any thread that mentions Springbank , getting stuck into them saying that they are a bunch of so and so's .
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Deactivated Member » Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:14 pm

Spirit of Islay

I'm not going to fall out with you over this mate. Life's too short. In any case, the last thing that I want to be part of is another ongoing feud.

In any case, persuading you that there could be any fault in the way Islay distilleries are operating would be like trying to convince a Christian of the non-existence of God lol.

But I'd venture to say that I'm far from alone in being concerned at the trend amongst some producers to market (ie hike the price) by packaging rather than by content.

Bruichladdich is undoubtedly the one that 'sticks out'. It is not objectively possible to justify the price tag on "PC6" by reference to the malt, nor indeed the extremely limited nature of the bottling. This was a staggering 18,000 bottles of a 6 year old. Nothing more, nothing less. Intriguing as work-in progress, but just not worth £60 retail when compared to what else that kind of money would but. And don't get me started on all the other 'pretty tin' sets (golf, submarines, et al).

Glenmorangie went down the same route last year. There were what many professional writers - not me, I know little - described as minor tinkerings with the distillates themselves. Points that might be important to some on this site, but won't even be noticed by 'normal' drinkers. No, the only real difference that most people noticed was fancier packaging equalling a fancier price.

Now, perhaps even more worryingly, Ardbeg seem to be jumping on the bandwagon. A "Blasda" website, games, pretty bottle, pretty packaging. And, surprise, surprise, a £40 price tag for a NAS malt. But not a lot of talk about the whisky itself. Will "Blasda" sell because it's a great malt at the price? Or because it's pretty? This avenue cheapens what is a great distillery.
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Spirit of Islay » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:03 pm

I'm not trying to get into a feud with anyone eelbrook , just putting another point of view .

eelbrook wrote:In any case, persuading you that there could be any fault in the way Islay distilleries are operating would be like trying to convince a Christian of the non-existence of God lol.

The Islay Distilleries must be doing something right as lots of people (even on this forum) seem to fall over them selves to try and get bottles even multiples when you're only limited to one !!!

eelbrook wrote:Spirit of Islay
Bruichladdich is undoubtedly the one that 'sticks out'. It is not objectively possible to justify the price tag on "PC6" by reference to the malt, nor indeed the extremely limited nature of the bottling. This was a staggering 18,000 bottles of a 6 year old. Nothing more, nothing less. Intriguing as work-in progress, but just not worth £60 retail when compared to what else that kind of money would but. And don't get me started on all the other 'pretty tin' sets (golf, submarines, et al).


I think what you've got to realise is that Bruichladdich is in a different position to most of the other distilleries in that they don't have the sales of New Make spirit to fall back on so the sales of their own spirit makes up all their income (as does Springbank and Bladnoch ) so they have to get the money in some how , again they must be doing something right as they hit profit before they expected infact they hit profit when others in the trade said Bruichladdich could never make profit .
Don't get me wrong though , if the prices are as Willie has been quoted i'll be seriously given the Octomore a pass and possibly the PC7 , after all i've got the Octomore futures coming at £33 a bottle and also a cask of PC which should hit about the £20 a bottle mark .
They obviously think the market will be there for these high priced malts .

eelbrook wrote:Now, perhaps even more worryingly, Ardbeg seem to be jumping on the bandwagon. A "Blasda" website, games, pretty bottle, pretty packaging. And, surprise, surprise, a £40 price tag for a NAS malt. But not a lot of talk about the whisky itself. Will "Blasda" sell because it's a great malt at the price? Or because it's pretty? This avenue cheapens what is a great distillery.


One thing i'll say in Ardbegs defence here is that Ardbeg were possibly the first with this type of marketing (website , games, mailings) , going back to the start of the committee , they've always been ahead of their time with this type of marketing . When Blasdas out and people have tried it then they'll talk about it . After all on Friday Myself and Willie were talking about it at the Vaults but we'd both been lucky enough to try it so we talked about it !
The thing that narked me when the Corryvreckan first came out was that people were more worried about how much they could make out of it rather than what it tasted like ( happening to much now on this forum now....).

I don't mind people talking about the pricing of bottles as long as they keep it to a single thread about pricing not jumping on any thread about Ardbeg / Bruichladdich (seeing we're talking about them two) and just slagging off Pricing and Marketing .
Hell ! I , along with a few others on this forum , actually confronted a certain marketing person about her pricing policy on a certain bottle ! Not that it done much good but we got it off our chest ........

Now lets have a dram eelbrook !
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Deactivated Member » Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:22 pm

Agreed.

Will it be one of my many unopened "Laddies" or many unopened "Ardbegs"
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby mikeymad » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:49 am

Going back to the OP. I didn't see this as a Ardbeg and 'laddie issue.

And I agree with the original thoughts behind the thread. If it is too much then don't buy it.

There are lot of things that I don't buy that I would like to try. I am lucky that I have a collection of friends that are willing to share, and I am willing to share my large collection of bottles with them as well.

And sometimes there seems to be a lot of complaints about whisky prices for products that people have no intentions of buying anyway.

I do like the idea of the thread though... it prevents thread crapping.

Cheers,
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:49 am

Q: Why does a dog lick his privates?

A: Because he can.

Whisky producers charge high prices for the same reason, as any smart business person would. Ultimately, it is those who willingly pay those prices who are responsible. That tends to turn me, and many others here, away from distilleries that have become overhyped and ultrafashionable. That's too bad, but you know, there's lots of good whisky out there. Those who complain about the terrible unfairness of the price of this or that must-have bottle are every bit as much the willing victims of all this as those who go ahead and pay the price.
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kallaskander » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:10 pm

Hi there,

I do not think that the following is entirely true, eelbrook.

Customer reaction
---------------------
To drinks companies, consumer 'brand loyalty' is everything. They want jo-public buying their expressions each and every time that they purchase whisky. So, again, short-term greediness might back-fire on them, with customers becoming disengaged because of crazy prices.[/quote]

Glenmorangie under new ownership did as yet not much care about brand loyalty.

Glenmorangie used to be the best selling malt in the UK (or was ist Scotland?) but that is not enough for the pretensions of LVMH. To be the first in the UK is not enough to be the first in the world will barely do.

What they are prepared to do for that you can read here.

http://heritage.scotsman.com/whisky/Gle ... 3328246.jp

My favourite passage is this


"No single aroma dominates The Original - we measured some 140 aromatic compounds," says Barrie. "We enhanced the vanilla and citrus fruit, because these are proven to be the two most appealing aromas in the world."

Barrie is master blender Rachel Barrie.

That does not sound as if the loyalty of faithful UK consumers is at the heart of LVMH.

But money surely is. There is much truth in the fact that we consumers fail to stop the global spirits players by refusing to pay the prices. And what chance do we stand when the prices we think and know are too high are being paid in the BRIC M countries.

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kallaskander » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:53 pm

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby fishboy » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:25 pm

kallaskander wrote:Hi there,

Glenmorangie used to be the best selling malt in the UK (or was ist Scotland?) but that is not enough for the pretensions of LVMH. To be the first in the UK is not enough to be the first in the world will barely do.

That does not sound as if the loyalty of faithful UK consumers is at the heart of LVMH.

Greetings
kallaskander


Perhaps this shows the lack of brand loyalty of your average UK malt drinker? One of the reasons (perhaps the main reason - possible the only reason) why Glenmorangie was the best selling malt in the UK was that the previous owners undertook extreme deep discounting with the major UK supermarkets all year round, but particularly around holidays/fathers day etc. In the first year (particularly the first Christmans) of LVMH ownership this discounting didn't take place hence the drop in sales. My recollection is that Glenlivet picked up a lot of the slack - but this may not be true. Perhaps this shows that the average malt buyer in the UK is price driven and will buy whatever is on special (not that I suggesting members of this forum are average!!!)

The UK market is quite bizzare with the supermarkets (who make up the majority of the market in terms of volume) holding most of the power. Why blame the producer for trying to charge what they think their product is worth? I've been drinking malts in the UK for 20 years and in all that time (until quite recently) the price in has barely changed and in real terms has gone down quite dram-atically :D

Looking back in my records, I was buying 10 year old laphroaig for £20 a decade ago, and the shop in my village has it for that price today (actually £19.99). I can't say that for much else I buy!!!

I'm just trying to put another perspective. All this LVMH bashing seems a bit one sided (except for Gordon!!!). I remember when this forum used to only bash Edrington or Diageo :wink:

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kallaskander » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:13 pm

Hi there,

it is not about the consumers loyalty towards a brand but about the loyalty of the brand towards the consumer.

Why should the consumer not buy whisky if the producer sells it cheap and therefore be loyal to the brand?

And this is not bashing of LVMH but telling the facts.

They do not want to sell Glenmorangie nor Ardbeg cheap anymore.

" ...

The Glenmorangie Company yesterday unveiled proposals for a £45 million investment programme which will focus on building the company's premium single malt Scotch whisky brands - Glenmorangie and Ardbeg.

....

The new bottling plant will provide the capacity for a significant increase in production of both single malts to meet the demand for premium single malt whisky in growing markets such as Asia, Continental Europe and the US.

...

The Glenmorangie Company Chief Executive Paul Neep said: "Our strategy is to focus on our premium single malt whisky brands to take full advantage of the rapid growth of single malts across the world. This plan represents significant capital investment by the company in Scotland. The brands will also be supported by increased marketing investment in their key markets across the world.

...

The Glenmorangie brand is already outpacing the overall category growth for single malt whiskies, according to the company. The new Glenmorangie range was successfully introduced in September 2007. Ardbeg has also been growing well ahead of the market rate and was recently named 'World Whisky of the Year - 2008' by whisky expert Jim Murray in his Whisky Bible 2008.

...

In order to concentrate on these future activities, The Glenmorangie Company proposes to implement a phased withdrawal from the bottling and sale of blended Scotch whisky.

The focus on premium single malt production will involve the sale of the existing Broxburn facilities. The Glenmorangie Company has signed a Heads of Terms agreement with Diageo for the sale of the 33-acre site. Glenmorangie will continue to operate from the Broxburn site over the next two years until it relocates to its new bottling facility.

In addition, the Glen Moray Distillery at Elgin - whose whisky is predominantly used in the company's blended Scotch - will be sold as a going concern.


http://www.moodiereport.com/document.ph ... c_id=17933



LVMH does not want to sell whisky cheap nor cheap whiskies. Premium and Super Premium is the goal. And neither is the European market the primary target. The target is the BRIC M countries.


In the wake of this premiumisation which does not come naturally but is managed the prices for so called standard whiskies in the range of 10 to 12 yo go up as well.

Europe may not be the target but the money which can be made there in the meantime is welcome. The question is are we prepared to pay anything they ask?

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Spirit of Islay » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:45 pm

Hi Kallaskander ,
It was always known from day one of LMVH purchase that they were going to stop the bottling and sales of Supermarket/cheap blends .

The question is are we prepared to pay anything they ask?

Anyone with half a brain won't ! I'm a massive Ardbeg Fan ( you may well have noticed.....) but i only pay for a bottle what i can afford , always have , stopped buying the Feis Ile releases when they went over the 1976 prices (£100+) .
I buy the Ten , even at £30 it's a stella release .
I buy the ANB , good price for a 17yo .
I bought the Corry , Superb value again .
I'll be buying the Blasda , £40 for a bottle isn't that bad imho .
I bought the original Mor , £350 for a Gallon of CS Ten year old , could have been worse .
I'll be buying a Mor II , still affordable for a gallon of Ardbeg TEN imho .
I haven't bought any of the recent Single cask releases because (a) i can't afford it and (b) they are over priced imho . Don't feel any worse for it , managed to get a try of the last few 75's , very nice but not worth the money .
Wonder if on the whole i'm too strong willed for the marketing/sales Dept ? :wink: :lol:

Regarding Discounting , it still happens with Glenmo / Ardbeg , just look at the recent Glenmo new range reductions and they've been "giving" the TEN away recently !
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kildalton » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:54 pm

not very attinent but...Spirit of Islay I've alreadya sked this but considering your huge knowledge about everything about Islay have you got any chance to know why there never was a 1971 OB single cask Ardbeg?

(what happened during those 70-71 years? the closure of caol ila 72-74 played a part?)

That's the year i was born and i reall would have got a 1971... :(
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Rosebankfan » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:21 pm

This is an interesting thread gents. My own views are mixed. One one hand I want good quality drinking whisky (as distinct from those bottlings which I would consider to be more collectible and would pay a premium for) at a reasonable price and I think that as long as there are supermarkets in the UK, that this will be the case. The Tescos' of this world have the clout to demand low pricing in return for the mass exposure that the big companies require. I think there will always be decent quality Scotch available at pretty reasonable prices and am certainly not too concerned. In fact, having sampled a few supermarket own labels in the last year or so, I don't think anyone really need be stuck for an everyday dram at modest price (I realise I'm maybe missing the point there).

Having said all of that, I also want to ensure that the Scotch industry survives and prospers long term and that means they require a decent return for their product. I work in manufacturing in Scotland myself and, believe me, the sector gets a hard time in the UK with competition from abroad and not a lot of help from our caring sharing government. I know the big guys like Diageo and LVMH etc should always be able to weather the storm but what about the small independents who are competing for a bit of market share too ?. As an analogy, we toured Harviestoun brewery recently and were told by the production manager that their production costs had risen by around 30% in the last year due to increases in fuel costs and hops due to a poor harvest the year before. However, he was struggling to pass on even around 5-6% increase to his customers because of competition (Tesco were particularly bad apparently)

There is nothing more galling than being told that the UK market doesn't matter and that it is not the target but I guess we are only a small island compared to the bigger emerging markets, so this is probably the reality for the bigger companies.

I also wonder how LVMH will increase their production in line with their proposed strategy - have they announced debottlenecking programmes for Ardbeg and Glenmorangie ? - certainly Ardbeg needs a decent investment if it is to up production.

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Spirit of Islay » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:34 pm

Slightly off topic Kildalton but to be honest i don't really know why no 1970/71 bottlings but taking a guess.....
Up until the early 1970's Ardbeg seem to struggle , in 1973 a sort of rescue package was put together , the Ardbeg Distillery Trust was formed by DCL and Hiram Walker so i would presume that distilling was on and off until this time . Either that or it was all used for Blending !
Don't know what the Ardbeg book says about this time .
The Man you need to ask is the then manager Hamish Scott , stop at his B&B and ask him !
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Spirit of Islay » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:43 pm

Rosebankfan wrote:I also wonder how LVMH will increase their production in line with their proposed strategy - have they announced debottlenecking programmes for Ardbeg and Glenmorangie ? - certainly Ardbeg needs a decent investment if it is to up production.

Rosebankfan


Hi RBF,
I really hope that Ardbeg doesn't add another set of stills . From what i gather the investment at Ardbeg is mainly for warehousing , to replace what Allied knocked down when they owned it :evil:
Though on this occasion i don't think Iain Henderson was driving the Bulldozer....... :D
Also there is going to be a bit more work on the visitors facilities .
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Lawrence » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:48 am

Another point that people forget is that when LVMH bought Glenmorangie (& Ardbeg & Glen Moray) and they cancelled the super market contracts (or didn't renew them) was due to the fact that they were selling huge amounts of whisky at very, very low margins. They were also competeing with all the other brands for those very low margins. As the low cost airlines will tell you there is very little joy at the low end of the market; just look at how many have gone bust in the last year.

Scotch whisky has always been promoted as a luxury product and it is at cross purposes to sell a whisky at a very low price and call it a 'luxury' product although it may have been darn good value.

LVMH are entitled to reposition Ardbeg & Glenmorangie where ever they like and we are entitled not to buy.

Another point that is often missed on this forum, especially outside of the UK, is that the distiller does NOT set the retail price so moaning at the distiller is futile. In my market the mark up is 270% on many products and the distiller is receiving a pittance per bottle compared to the government monoploy who set the final price.
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby bamber » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:57 am

Personally I have no problem turning down whisky that is overpriced. I did not buy PC6 (although I have had a dram) and I will not buy PC7. If Ardbeg 10 goes North of £35 a bottle I doubt I'll ever buy another one. Octomore ? Let's see how they price it.

The Blasda *is* expensive in my book. I suspect I'll get a bottle because a lightly peated Ardbeg is appealing and I guess that is what they are banking on. The thing is, any price between £30 -> £45 and I'm buying exactly one bottle ....
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby fishboy » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:59 am

kallaskander wrote:Hi there,

it is not about the consumers loyalty towards a brand but about the loyalty of the brand towards the consumer.

Why should the consumer not buy whisky if the producer sells it cheap and therefore be loyal to the brand?

And this is not bashing of LVMH but telling the facts.

They do not want to sell Glenmorangie nor Ardbeg cheap anymore.

" ...

The Glenmorangie Company yesterday unveiled proposals for a £45 million investment programme which will focus on building the company's premium single malt Scotch whisky brands - Glenmorangie and Ardbeg.

....

The new bottling plant will provide the capacity for a significant increase in production of both single malts to meet the demand for premium single malt whisky in growing markets such as Asia, Continental Europe and the US.

...

The Glenmorangie Company Chief Executive Paul Neep said: "Our strategy is to focus on our premium single malt whisky brands to take full advantage of the rapid growth of single malts across the world. This plan represents significant capital investment by the company in Scotland. The brands will also be supported by increased marketing investment in their key markets across the world.

...

The Glenmorangie brand is already outpacing the overall category growth for single malt whiskies, according to the company. The new Glenmorangie range was successfully introduced in September 2007. Ardbeg has also been growing well ahead of the market rate and was recently named 'World Whisky of the Year - 2008' by whisky expert Jim Murray in his Whisky Bible 2008.

...

In order to concentrate on these future activities, The Glenmorangie Company proposes to implement a phased withdrawal from the bottling and sale of blended Scotch whisky.

The focus on premium single malt production will involve the sale of the existing Broxburn facilities. The Glenmorangie Company has signed a Heads of Terms agreement with Diageo for the sale of the 33-acre site. Glenmorangie will continue to operate from the Broxburn site over the next two years until it relocates to its new bottling facility.

In addition, the Glen Moray Distillery at Elgin - whose whisky is predominantly used in the company's blended Scotch - will be sold as a going concern.


http://www.moodiereport.com/document.ph ... c_id=17933



LVMH does not want to sell whisky cheap nor cheap whiskies. Premium and Super Premium is the goal. And neither is the European market the primary target. The target is the BRIC M countries.


In the wake of this premiumisation which does not come naturally but is managed the prices for so called standard whiskies in the range of 10 to 12 yo go up as well.

Europe may not be the target but the money which can be made there in the meantime is welcome. The question is are we prepared to pay anything they ask?

Greetings
kallaskander


Like Gordon I'm not sure why the repositioning of Ardbeg and Glenmo should come as a huge surprise - they were bought by a luxury brand not by Lidl (discount supermarket for those who miss the reference)

And why should it all be about the loyalty of the brand to the consumer as opposed to the loyalty of the consumer to the brand. Surely the ideal would be a bit of both? However, I certainly feel loyalty to certain whisky brands, and when I visit the distilleries where those whiskies are produced I'm made welcome (year after year) and certainly feel that I'm valued, as least by those working at the distillery. Is this part a cynical marketing exercise (Mary, Jackie, Raymond and others - you know who you are!)? Of course not!!!!

Certainly, LVMH are currently discounting the Glenmo range in the UK. I was referring to their decision not to discount when they first took over the company. The point I was making was that Glenmo's position as no.1 in the UK was based, at least in part on discounting, and that the fickle UK consumer moved elsewhere when the price went north. Which doesn't demonstrate a great deal of brand loyalty.

I agree with Gordon's well made point. The majority of the Ardbeg range (and for that matter Glenmo range) are well priced. Has the price increased recently? Of course it has - show me a consumer product or commodity that hasn't (except for banking stocks :shock: !!!).

I still maintain that as whisky drinkers we've had it pretty good for a long time. Stable prices year on year (in effect a price decrease in real terms) and a huge stock of older whiskies left over from the last period of over production sold at a decent price by IB's and OB's alike. Perhaps a period of price correction is overdue.

I'm certainly not prepared to pay anything they ask - but will continue to make a personal choice on each release. I still rarely spend more that £100 on a single bottle and I don't see that changing.

ATB

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kallaskander » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:46 pm

Hi there,

some very interesting aspects in this feature

http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/index. ... &Itemid=66


A bit off topic but I want to remark that in the begining lines of this article I met the poorest sod on earth again - the young urban 25-35 year old on whom all marketing efforts of every drink in the world concentrate.

What the drinks and spirits industry expects of him is to ruin his liver and poison himself daily. Beer wine and hard drinks any alcoholic beverage you can name targets this poor man so that the profits rise.

For this ultimate goal they produce a sea of alcohol and advertise and woo for what its worth and hunt this poor man down wherever they can hit him.

The message is clear: drink is young hip and trendy.

Problem is that the message does not know an age border in its effectiveness. The message does take effect and worms its way down to age groups which should not be targeted.

And the UK wonders about young age drinking and the problems it causes. Not only the UK.

But I think that would be a subject for a thread on its own.

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kallaskander » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:43 pm

Hi there,

isn`t that cute?

Bushmills - Diageo's oldest "newest brand" - enables us to partake in the buoyant Irish Whiskey Category, which is forecast to continue double-digit growth.
We are repositioning Bushmills in Sociable Independence 'easy-going, popular and laid back Independence'. This sweet spot of the motivations is an attitude to whiskey that fits right into our young male drinkers' lives. To support this ambition we will have a single consistent Bushmills positioning, pack & programming.

Found it here

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9732

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kildalton » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:55 pm

thanks Spirit of Islay, i think you're quite right...
BTW If I meet the man I'll ask :)
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kallaskander » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:14 am

Hi there,

sorry eelbrook for kind of highjacking your thread but when I read this I could not help but lough.

And in the spirit of the late Michael Jackson I think that this is connected to your original post in a way.

http://www.talkingdrinks.com/products/b ... m-ale.html

Cheers mates.

I love the OSH and apreciate what Greene King does. But that is a bit ridicioulus I thik.

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby whiskey for sale » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:52 pm

The whiskey bottles are priced that way for a reason. If its high, they know someone is gonna buy it
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby woodhill » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:08 pm

whiskey for sale wrote:The whiskey bottles are priced that way for a reason. If its high, they know someone is gonna buy it


How profound!
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby fishboy » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:14 pm

woodhill wrote:
whiskey for sale wrote:The whiskey bottles are priced that way for a reason. If its high, they know someone is gonna buy it


How profound!


Did you get out of bed on the sarcastic side today woodie? You are flying!!

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Rosebankfan » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:48 am

Spirit of Islay wrote:
Rosebankfan wrote:I also wonder how LVMH will increase their production in line with their proposed strategy - have they announced debottlenecking programmes for Ardbeg and Glenmorangie ? - certainly Ardbeg needs a decent investment if it is to up production.

Rosebankfan


Hi RBF,
I really hope that Ardbeg doesn't add another set of stills . From what i gather the investment at Ardbeg is mainly for warehousing , to replace what Allied knocked down when they owned it :evil:
Though on this occasion i don't think Iain Henderson was driving the Bulldozer....... :D
Also there is going to be a bit more work on the visitors facilities .


SOI, I agree wholeheartedly. I'd also picked up the investment in warehousing and visitor centre but just wondered if this was to be extended to production. There is just something special about the Kildalton area and Ardbeg in particular that I would hate to see changing. It has the feel of a small, very hard working, homely place almost untouched by the outside world - this is certainly at odds with it being part of a large group who will, no doubt, push it very hard. I would hate to see it lose it's niche status possibly as a result of quality being sacrified for quantity.

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kallaskander » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:28 am

Hi there,

it may or may not happen. And some other interesting informations.

John Hansell had a chat with Dr. Lumsden

There are no plans on doing floor maltings any time in the near future at Ardbeg. Installing a second set of stills will be more likely, according to Bill. He said they can't justify floor maltings. Not yet, anyway. But that doesn't mean he doesn't wish they had them. He told me the main focus recently has been expanding capacity at Glenmorangie.
Regarding an Ardbeg Committee for the U.S., they are looking into it for 2009. The problem is that they require import licenses for very small amounts of whiskies. The logistics are tough. Big distributors won't want to be bothered with such small quantities. Plus, how do you distribute it? You make a few retailers happy, and piss off the rest.
Regarding Blasda, the lightly-peated version of Ardbeg which is just coming out now (not in the US-sorry), here's the reason why they bottled at 40%. Bill said this whisky is all about the delicate, lighter side of Ardbeg. He felt it would be more appropriate if it were bottled at 40%, not 46%. This is not going to be a new trend for them, so no need to worry.
There are no plans to bottle a Madeira or rum-aged whisky anytime in the near future. When I asked about Kildalton, Bill said they are working on various projects. Read between the lines here: it seems like he's got something up his sleeve for the near future.

http://blog.maltadvocate.com/2008/09/12 ... questions/


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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Spirit of Islay » Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:05 pm

There are 2 major worries about adding extra stills imo , one , the change of the finished product , one of the reasons they say Laphroaig changed in it's pungentness was the addition of the extra still in the 70's .
The other is , where do they put them ?
This would mean a rehash of the existing distillery as there's no room in the existing still house (as those of you who have been there will know....) , so presumably it would mean a new building and a shut down of the existing facilities to integrate any new stills , loss of production at some point ? Would they shift them about so the two washes and the two spirits are together ? There maybe a boom time at the moment but who says it will continue given the current financial state ?
To be honest could they sell any more in the near future than what they produce now ? Is it worth it ?
I talked to Stuart Thomson about the re-opening of the floor maltings before LVMH took over , it had been looked into , just the cost , 7 figure then .
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby kallaskander » Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:22 pm

Hi there,


Spirit of Islay wrote:There are 2 major worries about adding extra stills imo , one , the change of the finished product , one of the reasons they say Laphroaig changed in it's pungentness was the addition of the extra still in the 70's .
The other is , where do they put them ?


The reason that Laphroaig changed was that against all warnings the size of the new still was doubled instead of ordering two new ones to reach the desired extra capacity. And Laphroaig has changed dramatically.

So hopefully they will heed the advice and if they build in new stills they will use the proven method of copying the stills already there.

As to where putting them? It would not be the first time a distillery has been rebuild completely.
Money to build is there with LVMH. Let the old Ardbeg run and build a new one next to it if the terrain allows it.

It is all about premiumisation. The new Blasda is 56.50 € in Germany.

For a chill-filtered under 10 yo malt with mere 40.0% abv. And they saved on peat as well for a bargain. :wink:

It could well be that LVMH thinks the brand name Ardbeg carries so strongly that not matter what they do to the whisky the faithful buyers will follow.

They could be in error there.

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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Deactivated Member » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:48 pm

I think the point that I've missed is that "premiumisation" is not intended to attract / retain the likes of those of us who post here.

Rather, it is aimed at consumers that care more about the presentation than what's actually in the bottle.

By way of illustration, Aldi currently sells a sparkling white wine - "Cremant de Jura" (forgive any hiccups with spelling) for £5.99. It's made - in the Jura region of France - using the same grape varieties as Champagne and the same production techniques. Despite the low price point, most critics agree that it's better than many top name Champagnes costing 5 or 6 times the price.

But would a bride and groom really be happy serving the Aldi expression at their wedding? Would a couple wish to showcase such a brand when throwing a dinner party for their friends. No, no, no. Because, to far too many, it's all about image and nothing to do with taste.

This is the reason that many rich Japanese businessmen - all with hopelessly underdeveloped palates - spend thousands on a top-label wine, open it, and drink it with Coke - yes, it's true!

The question is simple. Can companies afford to alienate their loyal customers (who couldn't care less what the bottle and box look like as long as the contents are brill and at a reasonable price point) and rely on the 'image conscious' market?
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Re: IF YOU THINK THE PRICE IS TOO HIGH, DON'T BUY IT!

Postby Spirit of Islay » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:50 pm

kallaskander wrote:It would not be the first time a distillery has been rebuild completely.


Could they afford the loss of production for this way ?
Working in the building trade i would say no as it would be closed for a long while .

kallaskander wrote:
As to where putting them? It would not be the first time a distillery has been rebuild completely.
Money to build is there with LVMH. Let the old Ardbeg run and build a new one next to it if the terrain allows it.



My understanding is that the new warehousing will be built where the old ones were , directly behind/to the side of the Still House (there really isn't any other place for them...... ) , to remodel the still house they would need to do something with the boiler house which is directly next door to it so unless they are going to build the warehousing away from the boiler house/Still house (which could be an idea coming to think of it......kaboom !). There would be no room as if you leave enough "Breathing space" between the warehouse and still house then plonk another still house in between you've defeated the point...... Pure speculation until we see what's happening with the warehousing......
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