Really, really bad experience with Cadenheads shop/Amsterdam

[Deactivated Member]

Like it or not Americans are preceived badly in most corners of the globe...

It's real and it's nearly universal...

I am a f*^% American and that's all they see.

I can imagine if you make sweeping and hostile generalizations like that, you might find people giving you the cold shoulder.

[Jeroen Kloppenburg]

Exactly... Andries is far from the person who would make such generalizations. Not everyone divides the world up in either with us or against us (note the smiley, please )

[kwellada]

I found the the best way to travel in Europe is to be with Canadians and think Canadian (ie: have manners). I visited Cadenheads in Amsterdam a year ago with a Canadian friend who is very much into scotch and apparently made enough an impression with the shopkeeper that he remembered my friend from previous visits in past months.

Just my two cents. I was personally overwhelmed by the shop but we were treated very well.

And hopefully with Obama being elected, people will start warming back up to Americans again.

[talisker10]

"I can imagine if you make sweeping and hostile generalizations like that, you might find people giving you the cold shoulder."

I knew someone would come up with something like that. Have you seen me exhibit bad manners here? Being hostile? Unless you are an American and have been doing this forever you aren't qualified to criticize me on what I said. I have NEVER gone in with an attitude and if you will actually read my post you will see how I said I try to win people over..but with a WHOLE lot it just does not work. I go out of my way NOT to act like a typical American if anything...but that's just the way it is. I am fully aware of the behavior of some of my fellow Americans and therefore can understand where this comes from..so I am ABSOLUTELY not blaming other people. 99% of the onus is on Americans to reform their image.

Most of the non-Americans here would be much less inclined to harbor such feelings since we have something in common and have had civilized discourse...however I am sure a random survey of your countrymen will find an instant dislike for Americans.

[Deactivated Member]

Cadenhead's and bad service..well, I still have not forgotten my own experience of 2003 with the, pardon me, git, sitting behind the counter of the Cadenhead's shop in London's Covent Garden. It seems that the culture of the store was to serve wealthy-looking or already known customers only.

As a big supporter of independent bottlings, I went in one fine day, intent on purchasing several fine old bottlings of cask strength whiskies. I wasn't particularly "dressed up" that day as it was my day off but I thought I looked reasonably decent. In the store the shopkeeper was conducting some tastings for two elderly gents in suits and I was busily reading the blackboard's information about current bottlings and prices.

When the two gents left, I waited for a while and then went to the salesperson to ask a few questions regarding availability of Rosebank and such, cask details etc. At this point he looked at me for a long time, didn't say a word for a while. I was baffled. I asked again, and gave some praise to their selection at the same time. I do not recall the exact reply, but it was a sigh followed up by some muttering about tourists...finally he made a few statements in the manner of stating that this shop and its products are there for true whisky connoisseurs only and "am I sure there is something here suitable for my price range". I was astounded by this rudeness, since I did not think I looked that impoverished. I quickly said my goodbyes and left the store. After this I did my shopping at Milroy's where the service is always really, really good!

A week or so later I was in town wearing a three-piece suit, looking rather sharp. I could not resist popping into the same Cadenhead's shop: this time there was nobody else in the store and the person obviously did not recognize me. He was quick enough to jump up with a sales pitch. At this point I reminded him that I had been there earlier, and told him that I had just spent some £600 on whisky at Milroy's quite happily. I left stating to him that I shall never do business with Cadenhead's, and will also drop a personal note to the good people who I knew at Springbank and tell them exactly what kind of "service" the Cadenhead's Covent Garden shop dishes out to visitors. His answer was to swear at me.

As I said, a bit of a git he was, this chap..and no, I have not purchased any Cadenhead's whisky since. Call me a hardliner or unforgiving, but life is unforgiving and so is business - we often have that one chance at something and if we muck it up, its is gone for good.

[Deactivated Member]

Have you seen me exhibit bad manners here? Being hostile? Unless you are an American and have been doing this forever you aren't qualified to criticize me on what I said. I have NEVER gone in with an attitude and if you will actually read my post you will see how I said I try to win people over...

Frankly, pal, accusing me of national prejudice looks like bad manners. And if you do that - if you even go in with the attitude that the people you meet are probably prejudiced - you are probably going to have a harder job in winning people over.

I could not resist popping into the same Cadenhead's shop: this time there was nobody else in the store and the person obviously did not recognize me. He was quick enough to jump up with a sales pitch. At this point I reminded him that I had been there earlier, and told him that I had just spent some £600 on whisky at Milroy's quite happily. I left stating to him that I shall never do business with Cadenhead's, and will also drop a personal note to the good people who I knew at Springbank and tell them exactly what kind of "service" the Cadenhead's Covent Garden shop dishes out to visitors. His answer was to swear at me.

I have no idea what went on in that shop, but it sounds bizarre. I dress down when I'm off duty and have only once had a bad reaction from staff in a whisky shop (LFW in Inverary). But I can't say I would let that stand between me and a bottle of whisky I wanted. That would be cutting off my nose to spite my face. And going back to the shop as you did sounds like a rather melodramatic thing to do (perhaps you've watched Pretty Woman once too often) and I'm not surprised the guy swore at you. I would have done too.

[Deactivated Member]

I have no idea what went on in that shop, but it sounds bizarre. I dress down when I'm off duty and have only once had a bad reaction from staff in a whisky shop (LFW in Inverary). But I can't say I would let that stand between me and a bottle of whisky I wanted. That would be cutting off my nose to spite my face. And going back to the shop as you did sounds like a rather melodramatic thing to do (perhaps you've watched Pretty Woman once too often) and I'm not surprised the guy swore at you. I would have done too.

Wow, a lot of unnecessary hostility there towards the end - having a bad day Mr. Brown?

As is, I work in the field of customer service personally, and take pride in doing a good job with it. When I'm off-duty, I choose not to do business with people who come across as rude and unpleasant. Why? Because I don't have to do business with them, and I do not want to reward their behavior. I was in a position to get any of the bottles on sale there from elsewhere, they aren't THAT unique and special.

Pretty woman? Hmm, Dunno about you, but I'm not into hookers, sorry. I do a lot of competence transfers and trainings in my job as well, and this was part reason why I went back to the store - to teach this person a little lesson about his business loosing money due to his behaviour and incorrect assumptions about potential customer profile for the company he works for. After all, he doesn't own Cadenhead's, but he sure does a louzy job representing the company.

Your last comment: I really hope you don't swear at your potential customers even when they aren't satisfied with you or catch you treating them like a pushover or a sucker not worth your time? Because if you do, not only are you behaving rather unpleasantly as a person, but you also may come across as totally unprofessional. If this is the case however, I do hope you do not work in customer service field.

[Deactivated Member]

Wow, a lot of unnecessary hostility there towards the end - having a bad day Mr. Brown?

Maybe I was having a bad day - perhaps you have had a bad five years. My advice is that if you are still upset by what a shopkeeper said to you after five years, it might be you with the problem, not him.

I was in a position to get any of the bottles on sale there from elsewhere, they aren't THAT unique and special.

But we both know that's not true. Cadenhead's is an independent bottler and you can't get their bottles readily from other sources. You may find the odd one or two, but certainly not the majority of them.

I do a lot of competence transfers and trainings in my job as well, and this was part reason why I went back to the store - to teach this person a little lesson about his business loosing money due to his behaviour and incorrect assumptions about potential customer profile for the company he works for.

That's a really pompous, poisonous thing to do. I think you just wanted to hurt him - quite badly from what you say. You wanted to write to head office to get him into trouble, and also you wanted to go back to see him to make him feel bad - and watch his reaction. Did you want him to tremble? Did you want to see fear? You did this, as a customer, in the belief that he would be unable to answer back. You are a nasty bully, and I'm glad he did answer you back. You deserved it. (By the way, what did head office say in their reply to you?)

I really hope you don't swear at your potential customers even when they aren't satisfied with you or catch you treating them like a pushover or a sucker not worth your time?

I tend to avoid creating situations like that. In returning to have a bit more, you did create such a situation and you got what you deserved.

Bullying shop assistants is a really, really low thing to do. Bragging about it, five years later, is very unattractive.

And I'm not convinced that a three piece suit would have looked sharp in London 5 years ago. They send out subliminal messages.

[Deactivated Member]

Suffice to say, Im not going down this road with you Mr. Brown. I've said my piece, you've said yours, and this is not a discussion gentlemen should be having on a Whisky forum.

Your messages come across on occasion as somewhat belligerent and argumentative in nature, but I think internet does that to people sometimes. As I can see, I am not the only one you tend to pick the occasional altercation with; this is something that you might wish to think about.

To Cadenhead's I do wish to say that you might as a company wish to ponder upon the information which you have received, as you seem to be the one whisky retail company who's name pops up in negative aspect, all due to the experience your potential customers have in your stores due to your staff's behaviour.

This is not the only time I have read or heard such comments from whisky aficionados around the world, and I would stress the fact that I have heard such comments ONLY regarding Cadenhead's stores - not your competition. There are plenty of good independent bottlers around to do business with, and a plethora of whisky shops for retail customers to choose from.

[Deactivated Member]

That's a really pompous, poisonous thing to do... Did you want him to tremble? Did you want to see fear?

Just a brief answer to your questions, so as you would not feel I'm ignoring you or your viewpoint: I was hoping that he would LEARN from his mistake, or at least to give him food for thought.

Often people wonder why their company or product isn't doing well. When told the reason they often get rather gutted and bitter, stating things like "well why in the world none of those people told me about this..?!?!".

As you were not there to see this action happen, I can say I did it in the most gentle way I could, simply suggesting to the man that he should not judge a book by it's covers, and that due to his arrogance on my first visit, his company lost money, about £ 600 worth of it - that time. The result was really quite aggressive and unpleasant, he jumped up and used such foul language I would not repeat it here, continuing after me even from the doorway of his store.

(By the way, what did head office say in their reply to you?)

Without going into details they mentioned this was not the first such complaint.

[Deactivated Member]

Please PM me the foul language that was was retorted. I just wanted to know for my own amusement.

Thank you in advance.

I haven't been to these forums in a while, but it's sad to see where the quality of posts is going..sigh.

(Is) this place becoming just another internet forum wastebin where people who do not know each other take liberties smirking and insulting each other any time someone dares to say something..?

[Deactivated Member]

Please PM me the foul language that was was retorted. I just wanted to know for my own amusement.

Thank you in advance.

I haven't been to these forums in a while, but it's sad to see where the quality of posts is going..sigh.

(Is) this place becoming just another internet forum wastebin where people who do not know each other take liberties smirking and insulting each other any time someone dares to say something..?

[Deactivated Member]

Is this place becoming just another internet forum wastebin where people who do not know each other take liberties smirking and insulting each other any time someone dares to say something..?

I hope not, although I do have the self-awareness to see that you mean me as well as Y2M.

Most people I have met in the whisky world have been great - whether they are the book-learned writers whose reviews we all revere; the distillery manager with a lifetime in the industry; a stillman or mashman in a distillery; or a humble drinker. The great thing is the enthusiasm that permeates throughout the industry on all sides: manufacturing, retailing and consuming.

This thread seems rather unfortunate, and based on a series of misunderstandings. I hope that's the case and that we aren't really uncovering swathes of greed; misogyny; anti-Americanism; anti-rest of the world; or whatever.

I can only presume that the Cadenheads London example also arose from misunderstanding since the original idea of their products being out of the price range of a customer is absurd. Cadenheads sell products ranging from the cheapest malts to multi-thousand pound trophies.

Perhaps we criticize in others the qualities we like least in ourselves. Certainly I know I have been rude to sales staff on occasion. I wish I wouldn't do that, and I go home and hate myself for it. But when it happens, I try to learn from it because it isn't a battle of equals and it doesn't make me feel big.

Maybe this thread has outlived its usefulness.

[Iain]

Maybe this thread has outlived its usefulness.

Good point. Folks have had their say and it would surely be a good thing for everyone concerned to hauld their wheesh now, and let it drop.

[Deactivated Member]

But when it happens, I try to learn from it because it isn't a battle of equals and it doesn't make me feel big.

To clarify - I meant by this that sales staff are constrained by having a boss to whom they are answerable, whereas a customer is answerable to no-one and can be very rude with no fear of comeback. Hence, in an argument between a sales assistant and a customer, the sales assistant is not allowed to answer back for fear of being disciplined - and that's why it isn't a battle of equals.

[Reggaeblues]

Is this place becoming just another internet forum wastebin where people who do not know each other take liberties smirking and insulting each other any time someone dares to say something..?

I hope not, although I do have the self-awareness to see that you mean me as well as Y2M.

Most people I have met in the whisky world have been great - whether they are the book-learned writers whose reviews we all revere; the distillery manager with a lifetime in the industry; a stillman or mashman in a distillery; or a humble drinker. The great thing is the enthusiasm that permeates throughout the industry on all sides: manufacturing, retailing and consuming.

This thread seems rather unfortunate, and based on a series of misunderstandings. I hope that's the case and that we aren't really uncovering swathes of greed; misogyny; anti-Americanism; anti-rest of the world; or whatever.

I can only presume that the Cadenheads London example also arose from misunderstanding since the original idea of their products being out of the price range of a customer is absurd. Cadenheads sell products ranging from the cheapest malts to multi-thousand pound trophies.

Perhaps we criticize in others the qualities we like least in ourselves. Certainly I know I have been rude to sales staff on occasion. I wish I wouldn't do that, and I go home and hate myself for it. But when it happens, I try to learn from it because it isn't a battle of equals and it doesn't make me feel big.

Maybe this thread has outlived its usefulness.

I don't know about that! I like your last paragraph, Nick. Insightful...

I think if I'd been treated like MRJ I might have entertained the thought of doing as he did...but reason might have said "why bother?" Or if there was one bottle I REALLY wanted,but couldn't find elsewhere, bought it, and taken up the issue in as humourous a manner as possible. Interesting that the "management" said it wasn't the first time...

Trouble is, one drop of lemon can sour up a whole barrel of milk. I have to agree that most people I've encountered in the whisky world have been helpful and enthusiastic...perhaps a SLIGHT sense of patronisation once or twice, until they suss you out, but...

Nowhere was this "good spirit" more in evidence than at my first visit to Whisky Live last year. Those retailers who insisted on a voucher for the pathetically small samples they " entitle" you
+ to were in the minority - I was offered about eight generous cask strength freebies on the back of lively conversations on our mutual favourite topic! In fact, I never got round to using 2 of my 3 vouchers...


I've never encountered rudeness from a whisky salesperson. What would I do if I did? I'd quietly leave, or I might turn the tables. Ask if the person had "a little too much" last night and commiserate! Or, remembering some advice once given me that "most people are two drinks under par", grab a bottle I know well, and recommend the person try THIS!...with my own tasting descriptors!

I hope I never have to. Vintage House, Milroy's, TWE, I enjoy visiting them all. Long live the whisky community. As Robin Laing said at a recent SMWS tasting(another convivial, civilised evening)

"Whisky is a cure for which there is no disease."

[talisker10]

..for my part I regret posting what I did. I certainly mean no offense to anyone here as everyone is great. My main point was that my fellow Americans (Americans here excepted) need to stop acting like arrogant knuckleheads..

But I shouldn't have injected here anyway. Back to whisky.

[cadenhead's]

The latest post has been brought to our attention.
Whilst any complaint about our shops, is viewed
with great disappointment.
We are Horrified that It still plays on your mind
after 5 years.
As the staff in Cadenheads Head Office have all
been here for much longer than 5 years, We can
categorically say NO SUCH COMPLAINT was ever
received by us. Or our Springbank colleagues
More importantly we would NEVER say we had
received similar complains before.
We are left wondering if this person has the right
store or indeed the right Head office!??!

[bamber]

I've been to the Cadenhead's shop in London many many times over the years and he's always been chatty and nice and I dress and look pretty much like a homeless person !

Milroy's is the one shop I will not go to, though !!

[Deactivated Member]

Surely it couldn't be that M.R.J. has just made up the entire story...

...I want to believe, I really do.

[lohssanami]

Surely it couldn't be that M.R.J. has just made up the entire story...

...I want to believe, I really do.

This is a bit ridiculous Nick!

If MRJ had a bad experience, and nothing was reported, I'm sure it wouldn't have been the first time a customer decided not to complain to the retailer about an incident.

Maybe with Cadenheads response here, MRJ or anyone else with any hesitation to visit Cadenheads will see that some care has been taken to respond to this post. Returning with an open mind might just change his experience for the better.

Or, somebody here can just attack MRJ's handling of this, without being a first hand witness to the event, and make his desire to re-visit Cadenheads all the more unlikely.

As for me, I've never been to Europe, but I look forward to visiting a Cadenheads shop despite the two experiences here. I firmly believe that everyone has a different experience, and I won't argue until I'm blue in the face that someone's experience is wrong or invalid (though I may pound my head on the keyboard while pondering an argument), unless of course I was there to be a witness.

Maybe you, Nick, were subbing in for a Cadenheads employee that day, and it is you that cursed at him. Come clean Nick Brown!!! Fess up (or should I say Feis up)!!!

[UUNetBill]

Maybe you, Nick, were subbing in for a Cadenheads employee that day, and it is you that cursed at him.  Come clean Nick Brown!!!  Fess up (or should I say Feis up)!!! :wink: 

<chuckle> :)

[Deactivated Member]

If MRJ had a bad experience, and nothing was reported, I'm sure it wouldn't have been the first time a customer decided not to complain to the retailer about an incident.

Er... MRJ tells us upthread that he did report it and head office said it wasn't the first complaint of its kind. Head office here seem to think that was a bit of a porky pie. And if so, then the promise MRJ made to the shopkeeper that he would report the incident was also a bit of a lie. And in that case, it makes you wonder whether the incident happened at all. Which, if we remember, apparently arose because the shopkeeper thought MRJ might not be able to afford to buy a bottle of whisky (as I guess so few foreign visitors to whisky shops can).

[lohssanami]

If MRJ had a bad experience, and nothing was reported, I'm sure it wouldn't have been the first time a customer decided not to complain to the retailer about an incident.

Er... MRJ tells us upthread that he did report it and head office said it wasn't the first complaint of its kind. Head office here seem to think that was a bit of a porky pie. And if so, then the promise MRJ made to the shopkeeper that he would report the incident was also a bit of a lie. And in that case, it makes you wonder whether the incident happened at all. Which, if we remember, apparently arose because the shopkeeper thought MRJ might not be able to afford to buy a bottle of whisky (as I guess so few foreign visitors to whisky shops can).

I know that he made that comment up above, but I wanted to see if that was the only part of my response you would comment on. Errrr...or maybe I just lied about that! Wait...I think my whole being is a lie, and I should just disap......poof!

[Deactivated Member]

Folks, I in all honesty am not going to publicly start naming people here - who I discussed this sordid matter with at Springbank / Cadenhead's AGES AGO is a private matter.

After seeing what is supposedly (?? anyone could probably register here as "Cadenhead" - funny that there was no name in that post, if it represents the company's official view??) a response from the company at this point, I am inclined to think that the company's PR dept is either misinformed of their past customer feedback, or chooses to say otherwise. In my viewpoint naming the person here after so many years could still cause that person some grief inside the company, since the matter seems somewhat touchy.

In any case this topic truly holds very little to me. If some of the keen writers and readers of this forum feel that I am making up the story, so be it. People who know me have heard my views of Cadenhead's London store in past years also.

C'est la vie, enjoy it and I will do the same.

[Deactivated Member]

The latest post has been brought to our attention.
Whilst any complaint about our shops, is viewed
with great disappointment.
We are Horrified that It still plays on your mind
after 5 years.
As the staff in Cadenheads Head Office have all
been here for much longer than 5 years, We can
categorically say NO SUCH COMPLAINT was ever
received by us. Or our Springbank colleagues
More importantly we would NEVER say we had
received similar complains before.
We are left wondering if this person has the right
store or indeed the right Head office!??!

I may be a foreigner and a non-native english speaker, but whomsoever wrote this message, you might wish to preview your scribblings prior to posting them. I do see some unintentional humour here, as you say that, and I quote "More importantly we would NEVER say we had
received similar complains before".

No, I guess you would not say that, would you..

[Deactivated Member]

After seeing what is supposedly (?? anyone could probably register here as "Cadenhead" - funny that there was no name in that post, if it represents the company's official view??) a response from the company at this point...

And you said I came across as belligerent.

Perhaps some mischiefmaker just registered with that name 4 weeks before you posted your story because they knew they would be able to make you look silly. Damned psychics! You've got to admit, though, that this is a pretty good disguise as a first post:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10065&p=183315#p183315

You've got to admire the effort that this poster has gone to - the research that went into this post. Unless - it couldn't be, could it? - that the post really has come from Cadenhead's...

[Spirit of Islay]

This is getting confusing.....
Nick Brown
Brown Nick

What next....
Brick Nown ?

[Deactivated Member]

C'mon old Nick, don't you get tired of this topic already, you grudgy vindictive old grump........Looks like a one-man vendetta from where I'm standing.

You been dishin' out crap here on the forums for so long don't you have a life or is Dunn Eidean really that boring............................................................................

Just uncovering the odd liar, cheat or knave here and there. Telling fibs about a shop in order to damage its reputation is pretty poor form, don't you think?

[Wave]

Gee Nick, you got a groupie!

[Deactivated Member]

Yes - it happened to me once before on another forum. Turned out to be a forum administrator.

[Administrator]

Cadenheads wrote
The latest post has been brought to our attention.
Whilst any complaint about our shops, is viewed
with great disappointment.
We are Horrified that It still plays on your mind
after 5 years.
As the staff in Cadenheads Head Office have all
been here for much longer than 5 years, We can
categorically say NO SUCH COMPLAINT was ever
received by us. Or our Springbank colleagues
More importantly we would NEVER say we had
received similar complains before.
We are left wondering if this person has the right
store or indeed the right Head office!??!

The Cadenheads account is legtimate.