Whisky Live 2007 - New voucher system?

[RufusA]

For 2007 Whisky Live the voucher system appears to have been changed so that they have a monetary value and samples are brought at the stands:

A voucher is the event’s currency to help you sample. No sample can be tasted without exchanging a number of vouchers. You receive a number of vouchers as part of your entrance ticket, and further vouchers are available at a cost of £1 each during the show. You will require between 1 and 3 vouchers for each sample, depending on the age and rarity of the whisky. The principle is that unaged whiskies or whiskies under 10 years are 1 voucher, and whiskies over 18 years of age are 3 vouchers. This amount is at the discretion of each exhibitor.

So is this a good idea to introduce transparent fairness and reduce excessive alcohol consumption or a bad idea that will destroy the WL experience.

[Nidaros]

I don't like it.

I think it ruins the atmosphere in a way. To me Whisky Live made me realize that the "expensive" whiskies are accessible to me. The quality itself spoke to me.

A sort of currency system will put the more exclusive whiskies on a pedestal, and therefore alienate them for many newcomers.

If this system was introduced this year when I was there, I am sure I would have less of a passion than I do now.

[Paul A Jellis]

Bad idea! They are also saying the ticket price is £25 and this will only get you 5 vouchers, so that's a 12yr old and an 18yr old and your money is spent! Not really worth the trip to London!

[Di Blasi]

Sounds like the way they do things at The Oslo Whisky Festival. (It was great this year by the way!!!) But with the funny, silly, ridiculous rules in this country, it's the only way they can do it, vouchers. Otherwise I too am against it. Thought about attending next year, maybe I'll think twice.

[bamber]

Sounds like a very bad idea.

[Deactivated Member]

I spoke at length to many of the WL organisors earlier this year at Glasgow WL and this topic was discussed.

It was explained to me that the driving force behind the new system was UK law, councils and the perception of "Responsible Drinking".

Now I know that the UK has an extremely bad reputation when it comes to alcohol and certain events, but WL is something which is attended by people who love, or indeed LIVE whisky. BY connoisseurs, afficionados and collectors alike, not by your average lout wishing to get drunk quickly on whatever offers the greatest volume at the lowest price.

It is a specialist event run by and for whisky specialists.

In my opinion, this new system will actually focus MORE on the price of the whiskies - as has already been discussed, this whisky costs x, this one y ....... any extra that you want will cost z each ... etc. Which in turn will put off the specialists, connoisseurs .. etc as is already being discussed here.

Also in my opinion, there was nothing wrong with the voucher system used in 2006. I paid an entry fee which gave me a booklet of 15 vouchers. The whiskies on offer were classified by age as being worth 1, 2 or 3 vouchers.
I sampled many different drams throughout my 2 days and still left with almost a full book of unused vouchers. I never saw any problems with trouble being caused by people having drunk too much and everyone seemed happy with this system.

I urge WL not to change this format as it is indeeed a winning formula and will certainly make me consider alternative and competitive events if the change is implemented, as it will no longer be so viable for me to travel to a WL event as opposed to an alternative one.
MT

[Deactivated Member]

I echo the comments above. I don't think this is a very good idea and has the potential to kill future events stone dead. It is not a cheap to attend these events - despite Matts comments in another post on this topic. The whole cost of the weekend has to be considered. The accepted trade off is to sample wonderful whiskys that may not be tasted elsewhere without further expenditure.

Exhibitors may also start to consider if it's worth their while attending. Basically they don't want to take their stock back home with them. They will already have costed their attendance at the event and no doubt happy to have their product sampled by as many possible. If they have to start "charging" then they will probably question the point of being there. It could end up as nothing short of a glorified pub and some exhibitors may not wish to be tarnished by association with such a format.
[By the way, the 1,2 or 3 voucher system at WL Glasgow was ridiculous, a little childish and I'm not convinced that it was in anyone's interests]

WL needs to be careful. This has up until now been a fabulous event world wide - but it is wholly dependent on a small specialist market.
If whisky entusiasts stop attending, who will?

[irishwhiskeychaser]

I second that, if anything it shold at most be a 2 tier thing. Up to 18yo and then over 18yo.

At the end of the day the distilleries want people to taste their wares to entice people to buy.

As Chrieftan said people might as well as go to the pub to try them then.

[susywong]

As an exhibitor at WL i think it's a good idea. We have to supply our own stock, and last year, while it was 1 voucher regardless of whisky, the majority of people went for our older, rarer whiskies. THe voucher system will (for want of a better phrase) separate the "wheat from the chaff" and will make it clear that those who are willing to use 3 vouchers for a Port Ellen actually appreciate their whisky, instead of getting a glass thrust in my face to be told "i want the dark 40yo..." when they have no clue as to what they're asking for!!!

At whisky Live Glasgow alone, we went through over 30 bottles, ( and we're not a big company!) so i can only imagine how Glenfiddich and W&M etc coped!!!


Also, the voucher system discourages over-drinking. I know some people have posted that people who attend WL events are Whisky lovers, and i'm not disputing that fact, but there is still a large element of drunks at the end of the night! Over the years, you would not believe the abuse i've had from Whisky Festival atendees because i won't give them a whisky when they've had too much, or won't give them the "last dram" after we've been told to stop pouring. I've been called almost every name under the sun, and believe me they're not isolated incidents!
The voucher system will hopefully prevent this.

I've jsut returned from the Leiden festival in Holland where they have used the voucher system for many years now. And it works very well. the "prices" of the whiskies are clearly stated at the drinker then makes their own choice as to whether to spend their vouchers or not! I didn't see any drunks, not even when i held my Masterclass at 10pm at night!

I'm sorry if i've offended anyone in this post, it wasn't my intention, but i just wanted to highlight the advantages of the voucher system from an exhibitors point of view.

May i also state that these are my own personal views, not the views of Douglas Laing & Co.

Cheers!
Susan

[irishwhiskeychaser]

It's good t hear the other side Suzy and you do have a point. And there is no place for abuse like you have described.

That's the great thing about this whisky forum we get to hear a lot from the 'other' side directly from the likes of yourself Suzy and it helps us understand a certian view point which we don't neccessarily appreciate at times.

If one wants to taste an expensive whisky they should be willing to pay for it as I suppose it still is good value for money.


May I state that these are the views of IWC and not the general public

Cheers Adrian

[Deactivated Member]

Also, the voucher system discourages over-drinking.

Susan

Suzy -
Unfortunately, I don't think it does. All that happens is that more "1 voucher" products will be drunk. I am aghast that irresponsble (*)s abuse exhitors in the way you have illustrated - but sadly people who are abusive when drunk always will be and no number of regulatory steps will ever solve the problem. It is difficult to know how to effectively deal with such people without having an increased security presence at festivals. This in itself may damage the image of the event and extensive measures to prevent drunken behaviour would impact greatly on the majority of sensible whisky drinkers who attend for all the right reasons.

However, I can appreciate a lot of what you say and as IWC says, it's interesting to get an exhibitors point of view (although you do attribute your comments as personal). That said, festivals are customer driven and exhibitors, no doubt, have some sort of evaluation mechanism in place to measure the success/effectiveness of their participation. Given that they keep turning up, these shows must be good for business - warts and all.

If the good will of those who travel to whisky festivals is damaged then the whole fabric of these events will start to erode and it may be diifficult to recover the momentum and exhibitors will find it not worth their while attending...and so the slow spiral downwards begins.

[susywong]

In the UK we have been so used to paying the entrance fee and getting as much whisky as we desire, and i think the problem lies in the fact that some of you might feel you're being "ripped off", and will have to start paying for it via the voucher system. But, at the end of the day, we have to promote responsible drinking and let's face it, letting some people loose in a room with over 200 whiskies is hardly responsible is it?

I'm not saying the voucher system is perfect, but it's taking a step in the right direction, and i agree with crieftan, there should be heightened security at some of these events!

Again, my own personal thoughts, from an exhibitors point of view!

Susie

[The Fachan]

From someone who has been in the same position as Susywong at events across the world I have to back her 100% on her comments.
Yes, there are many people there who want to enjoy and savour the exhibitors bottles but sadly there is always the other side to combat.
I also believe that the exhibitors must be strong in standing up to people they think have "over indulged"

[Deactivated Member]

I don't think anyone on these boards would disagree. The difficulty comes in enforcing the standards of acceptable behaviour without making it difficult for the majority. An example is the ill-fated glass ban! Yes, the intentions were good but...............

Suzy -
I'm curious as to how far the entry and masterclass fees go to meet exhibitors expenditure.
How does the voucher system work for exhibitors? Do WL fund your participation by the voucher returns? Do exhibitors cover costs or is it just covered under an advertising budget?

[Paul A Jellis]

There always seem to be a lot of security guys in and around the foyer, perhaps they should move into the main hall towards the end of the event!

There is no excuse for bad behaviour, it's just a shame that we all have to suffer the consequences - but that's the same everywhere.

I for one shall just sit back and enjoy the simply irony of the UK's largest whisky tasting where your encouraged NOT to drink!

Cheers (or not), Paul

[bamber]

As an exhibitor at WL i think it's a good idea. We have to supply our own stock, and last year, while it was 1 voucher regardless of whisky, the majority of people went for our older, rarer whiskies. THe voucher system will (for want of a better phrase) separate the "wheat from the chaff" and will make it clear that those who are willing to use 3 vouchers for a Port Ellen actually appreciate their whisky, instead of getting a glass thrust in my face to be told "i want the dark 40yo..." when they have no clue as to what they're asking for!!! (Snip)

People went for older rarer whiskies because it was a tasting event and they wanted to try something special.

It seems to me you're equating a willingness / ability to spend more money, with an appreciation of fine whisky, when you say: "... those who are willing to use 3 vouchers for a Port Ellen actually appreciate their whisky".

Lets keep our fingers crossed that the new voucher system keeps 'the drunks', as you put it away from you and the DL stands in future.

I'll be sure not to trouble you at all.

[The Fachan]

Bamber,

I would ask in reply, is it right that an exhibitor should be made GIVE AWAY their best products at the same "price" as standard bottling.
The trade trys as much as possible to cater for the conniesuer but the majority of people at these events are just looking for oldest and expensive without an appreciation of what they are getting.

[Deactivated Member]

and last year, while it was 1 voucher regardless of whisky,

Cheers!
Susan

Suzy, let me also say that this kind of abuse can not be tolerated and is basically a security failing at WL.

Meanwhile, I must point out that last year (2006) it was not 1 voucher regardless of whisky. There were strict guidelines stating that it was 1 vouicher for the younger whiskies (I think up to 18 years), 2 vouchers for the slightly older ones (18-25?) then 3 vouchers above that.
I really didn't see too many exhibitors taking more than 1 voucher, but the guidelines were there.

Yes, I do feel that 5 vouchers included in the entrance fee is what you call something of a rip-off, as this can equate to just 3 drams and then I have to buy more at up to 3 GBP each.

This really makes the whole event too money-oriented and too expensive, especially when I also have to buy a total of 4 flights (just for me!) to get there, then taxi fares from the airport to the hotel & return, not forgetting 3 nights in a hotel.

I would love to visit WL Glasgow again in 2007, but alas, I sadly do not see myself being there under these conditions.

MT

[Deactivated Member]

Fachan -
I don't want to see this thread take on an "us and them" feel, but I have to ask the question - what is the point of any whisky tasting event if not for consumers to try things they wouldn't ordinarily afford/wish to try?

If exhibitors start getting precious about their wares, then why bring them along? I for one take exception to the inference that using three vouchers seperates those who appreciate whisky from the general populus who only use one voucher at a time. It is venturing into whisky snobbery!

Yes, I accept that we can't expect something for nothing but the voucher system will not, IMHO, cure the problem. It has to be about finding the happy medium and I for one would hate to see the number of exhibitors - especially the independents - going down because it is simply not cost effective. This, however, is a matter for the organisers of the event to manage.

Perhaps the event could be sponsored by drinkaware ( )

[susywong]

Bamber, i understand that people want to try new/rare/special whiskies but you're not understanding me. I'm not saying that the only people who appreciate it can afford it at all. For example, at Whisky Live Glasgow, i was pouring a dram and explaining to the recipient what DL do. Now imagine that when you're trying to promote/explain/educate about Whisky X, when someone sidles up to the side of the stand and holds their glass out, saying "Can i have some of that?" or " i want that dark one there", or " what's the oldest you've got". Some people lurk at the stands and wait till whisky is being poured then all of a sudden there can be 7 or 8 glasses infront of you, waiting to be filled. Can you honestly tell me that every single one of these people want to taste the whisky becuse it's Whisky X or because it's whisky, full stop.

Some people just will not be willing to "pay" for a whisky with their vouchers regardless of their willingness/ability to spend money, and we at DL have never ever taken that stance. At how many other stands at Whisky Live can you see a 40 Glenfarclas rubbing shoulders with 27yo Port Ellen, 28yo Macallan etc...??? Some comapnies keep these "specials" under the counter for those that think will apreciate it more, but we let everyone taste it if they so wish.

What i'm trying to say, is that some people don't know, or care what they're drinking, and these are the people that get blind stinking drunk!

I'm not trying to insult anyone on this forum, and to my knowledge i don't think i have because i'm sure that the people who read and post on this forum are not the ones who get so drunk they fall over and are rude to exhibitors!

And Bamber, i'm sorry you feel you won't be able to come to any DL stands in the future, but you have to remember that we're only trying to do our jobs. And if people in other professions don't have to stand for drunken, abusive behaviour, then why should we????

[susywong]

Crieftan i agree, it shouldn't turn into an "us and them" but it's very rare that exhibitors' voices are heard!

there's 2 sides to every story!!!

[bamber]

Bamber,

I would ask in reply, is it right that an exhibitor should be made GIVE AWAY their best products at the same "price" as standard bottling.
The trade trys as much as possible to cater for the conniesuer but the majority of people at these events are just looking for oldest and expensive without an appreciation of what they are getting.

It depends on whether, they are trying to generate good will and raise brand awareness or pick up some change flogging shots.

Last year at WL Live London Signatory, HP, Ben Nevis and (rather ironically) DL were the highlights for me. They had great whiskies that the exhibitors seemed keen for us to try. I imbibed great whisky and brand loyalty from those stands.

Not every stand was like this. Ardbeg really switched me off. The 10yo - err actually I have tried that one.

[Deactivated Member]

Suzy,
I sincerely hope that the security is better at next year's WL events, as I said, I agree that nobody should have to put up with any kind of abuse!

At the moment I am wondering whether this new format of voucher system will actually make things worse, rather than better. Maybe I ddin't come across as clear as I hoped in my previous post, so let me offer this as food for thought:

Previously, WL has successfully focused on a specific niche market. A reasonably expensive looking entrance fee which I am sure has put off the casual 'not really interested so much in whisky' drinkers.
Suddenly, we see a lower-priced entrance fee and an open advertisement that extra vouchers may be purchased at 1 GBP each. FOr most people, this could mean 1 GBP per whisky.
I am now wondering whether the desired effect will be reversed and this will look more like an open whisky bar attracting exactly the kind of people nobody wants at the events.

In my opinion, I still feel that the entrance fee should have been left as it was and a book of 12-15 vouchers included.
Enforce the 1, 2 or 3 voucher rule more than it was in 2006 and don't change a winning format.

Meanwhile, please let me say that I was one of the (non-ignorant) persons who really enjoyed the DL offerings at Glasgow in 2006.
So much so that upon returning home to Germany I made a point of contacting the German DL distributor and adding DL products to my sales portfolio for my still quite new business. In additon, DL bottlings are now featuring very strongly in my whisky tastings and are being extremely well received, which in turn is bringing you more business.

Keep up the good work and the great bottlings!

MT

[Deactivated Member]

Crieftan i agree, it shouldn't turn into an "us and them" but it's very rare that exhibitors' voices are heard!

there's 2 sides to every story!!!

Suzy - there always are
This is developing into a rather good debate.

By the way - how was Paris? Did you ghost it as planned?

[Deactivated Member]

Sorry, I forgot to add:

Yes, DL may be pleased to know that this business exposure in my tastings and product lines is a direct result of my presence at Glasgow WL 2006.
If you keep marketing statistics, then you would be correct to attribute new business to your presence at that event.

I will also add that if the pricing would have been as is now announced for 2007, I almost certainly would not have been there.

MT

[Deactivated Member]

I will also add that if the pricing would have been as is now announced for 2007, I almost certainly would not have been there.

MT

What?? And miss a good christening??

[Deactivated Member]

Ah yes, the Christening!
Wasn't there also a marriage on the same day too?

Speaking of which, thanks to Richard "it always rains on Islay" Paterson, I have also included Jura in recent tastings.

Just a shame it wasn't the 33 year odl!

[bamber]

And Bamber, i'm sorry you feel you won't be able to come to any DL stands in the future, but you have to remember that we're only trying to do our jobs. And if people in other professions don't have to stand for drunken, abusive behaviour, then why should we????

I've got nothing against DL. Great whisky and the guy running the stand at WL London 2006, was a real gent. One of the best people there.

I'll concede not everyone at tastings knows their whisky. However, your posts make me feel that you regard a large proportion of WL attendees as a bunch of freeloading drunks, who would are undeserving of the fine whiskies on offer. Maybe this really was the case at WL Glasgow 2006 - I don't know I wasn't there (<voice = drunkard>or was I ? (hic) maybe forgots</voice = drunkard>).

Anyway I don't want to scrap about this anymore. I'll go to WL London 2007, whatever the voucher arrangement.

[Scotty Mc]

I've never been to a WL event but I believe 3 vouchers to be a bit excessive in certain circumstances. How much do you recieve for 1 sample?

[Deactivated Member]

I've never been to a WL, and to be honest I'm not sure I'd want to. I question the entire purpose for attending. Most of you here seem to feel the important thing is to get value for money as far as the whisky you consume is concerned. I would think rather that it is a good opportunity to meet people in the industry, learn a thing or two, and in the process maybe try a few drams you've never had before. If that is not the rationale, then I can't see the point--you can drink all the whisky you want at the Pot Still, and your weekend in Glasgow will cost you less.

Bamber, I think you are unfair to Susy. She described a particular and noticeable element amongst the attendees; she didn't say it was "a large proportion", just that it is an ongoing problem, at (I presume) every event. To The Fachan you said, "It depends on whether, they are trying to generate good will and raise brand awareness or pick up some change flogging shots." Obviously it is the former; it's the intent of the attendees that is sometimes questionable. It depends on whether they are there to be open-minded and learn something, or are trying to slam down as many shots as they can in the time allotted.

Malt-Teaser, you said, "This really makes the whole event too money-oriented and too expensive, especially when I also have to buy a total of 4 flights (just for me!) to get there, then taxi fares from the airport to the hotel & return, not forgetting 3 nights in a hotel." Those expenses are your problem, not Whisky Live's. It strikes me that if you can afford the expense of getting there, a few extra pounds for vouchers is a drop in the bucket.

The problems Susy mentions, and the realities of local law and liability issues, are real, and Whisky Live obviously has an obligation to try to deal with them. I don't know that there is any "best" solution, and I'm sure that, no matter what is done, someone won't like it.

And again, I question the entire rationale of such events in the first place. Inviting large numbers of people to crowd around exhibitors' tables with the promise of the odd dram seems a very inefficient way of making contact with the general public. Maybe I'm spoiled because I've had a blether with Jim McEwan in the shop at Bruichladdich, and been driven all over Speyside by Ian Logan. But I don't feel comfortable trying to elbow into a crowded table to get the attention of someone who is already being torn in twenty different directions, and I certainly don't need to stop by the Ardbeg table for a sample of the Ten, or the Highland Park table for a chat with someone who's never been to Kirkwall. So I find the attraction somewhat elusive.

--Unless, of course, there are choppers!

[bamber]

Bamber, I think you are unfair to Susy. She described a particular and noticeable element amongst the attendees; she didn't say it was "a large proportion", just that it is an ongoing problem, at (I presume) every event.

".... there is still a large element of drunks at the end of the night! "

To The Fachan you said, "It depends on whether, they are trying to generate good will and raise brand awareness or pick up some change flogging shots." Obviously it is the former; it's the intent of the attendees that is sometimes questionable. It depends on whether they are there to be open-minded and learn something, or are trying to slam down as many shots as they can in the time allotted.

I (and I assume others) go to tasting events to try whiskies, and to talk whisk(e)y with other enthusiasts - be they exhibitors or attendees. If people really go along purely with the intention of getting wasted, let me be the first to say that they're idiots. However, I've not seen it that way. Sure there are a few tipsy and jovial red faced punters at the end of the day / night. It happens as a natural consequence of sampling lots of goodies. If you really find that offensive, you've got no place at that kind of event.

Mr TH, your trips around Scotland sound fantastic and I hope I can save enough liver and pennies to follow in your footsteps in the future, but for the time being the odd tasting, on my doorstep, is all I can manage. That being said I still think you should try WL, because it's great fun.

[Deactivated Member]

Bamber, I think you are unfair to Susy. She described a particular and noticeable element amongst the attendees; she didn't say it was "a large proportion", just that it is an ongoing problem, at (I presume) every event.

".... there is still a large element of drunks at the end of the night! "

It may seem a matter of parsing words, but I wouldn't say that "a large element of drunks at the end of the night" is the same as "a large proportion" of those attending.

If people really go along purely with the intention of getting wasted, let me be the first to say that they're idiots. However, I've not seen it that way. Sure there are a few tipsy and jovial red faced punters at the end of the day / night. It happens as a natural consequence of sampling lots of goodies. If you really find that offensive, you've got no place at that kind of event.

Surely you don't mean to suggest that what Susy has described doesn't exist.

Mr TH, your trips around Scotland sound fantastic and I hope I can save enough liver and pennies to follow in your footsteps in the future, but for the time being the odd tasting, on my doorstep, is all I can manage. That being said I still think you should try WL, because it's great fun.

I may yet, who knows. I certainly understand the idea that WL brings a bit of Scotland (and Ireland and Kentucky, etc) to those who cannot make the trip. I surely hope you can some day...you have a big head start on me!

[bamber]

Bamber, I think you are unfair to Susy. She described a particular and noticeable element amongst the attendees; she didn't say it was "a large proportion", just that it is an ongoing problem, at (I presume) every event.

".... there is still a large element of drunks at the end of the night! "

It may seem a matter of parsing words, but I wouldn't say that "a large element of drunks at the end of the night" is the same as "a large proportion" of those attending.

LOL - I knew you would say that !! I wont get into a battle of sematics with Mr Picky - that's a fight I'm sure to lose

If people really go along purely with the intention of getting wasted, let me be the first to say that they're idiots. However, I've not seen it that way. Sure there are a few tipsy and jovial red faced punters at the end of the day / night. It happens as a natural consequence of sampling lots of goodies. If you really find that offensive, you've got no place at that kind of event.

Surely you don't mean to suggest that what Susy has described doesn't exist.

I guess it depends, which side of the exhibit stand you're looking at it from. Phew those quotes were tricky.

[Iain]

Susy's posts on this thread make excellent and thought-provoking reading. It's rare and refreshing to find someone from the trade who is willing to express an insider's opinions so clearly and forcefully in a public forum.

She puts a lot of bland spoon-fed whisky journos to shame (imho of course!).

[The Fachan]

Excellent debate, the voucher system is not perfect thats for sure. This is an ideal forum to discuss it and I have no doubr Rob and the team will take notice.