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Fake Macallan Continued....

Do you have a 50 year old vintage waiting to be discovered by a worthy collector? Post your details here and find out!
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Postby lexkraai » Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:29 am

I think you can safely assume the replicas are based on fake whiskies. All the 11 bottles that were tested were proven to be fakes. What are the chances that at the same time the 4 bottles that the replicas were based on were all genuine? A simple statistical test (chi-square for anyone interested) gives you the answer to that question: about 1 in 10,000.

Draw your own conclusions.
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Postby Iain » Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:55 pm

From the Mac website:

"In 1998 The Macallan acquired a very rare bottle of 1861 from a private collection... It was surprisingly fresh and vibrant, clearly The Macallan, but full of youthful vitality."

But as the company has made clear in its press releases, there were no clues that might have suggested that the "vintage" whiskies they bought might be fakes.

:roll:
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Postby Admiral » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:22 am

I can't remember the exact words, so I'm only paraphrasing here, but I had to chuckle when I read Michael Jackson's Companion 5th edition and he says that the replica editions seem "eerily" like the youthful Macallans of today.

Perhaps he knew something? :wink:
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fakes

Postby richard » Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:12 pm

it isnt just macallan that have been caught there are more fakes out there than you realise a small amount so be careful what you buy it will only be old bottles that are worth the risk due to the amount of money that can be made
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Postby Rudolph Hucker » Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:31 am

Richard makes any interesting point about the possibility of faking being much more common than we may think, but is there any evidence of another macallan type disaster?

Can anyone recall anything similiar, specifically about whisky?

Many years ago I worked on the Morning Advertiser which was then a daily newspaper, mainly for the on-licence trade in the UK.
I came into contact with many publicans, and the subject of substituting a cheap blend for a premium one was a regular topic of conversation. If I remember right, the favourite trick was to substitute Claymore for blends like Bells and Teachers, thus giving the publican a much greater profit margin.

But the main point of this story is that it was always claimed that no whisky drinker, even those that regularly asked for a Bells or a Teachers by name, ever realised that they were actually drinking a much cheaper brand.

So perhaps spotting a fake is not always easy, although I guess most malt drinkers would be able to spot a fake malt.- unless, of course, they work for the macallan!

cheers
Rudolph
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Postby Iain » Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:47 am

I believe some of the major whisky companies were caught out in the 1990s and bought one or two "vintage" malts for their collections. They were innocent victims. The bottles were removed from the collections and taken out of circulation when the fakes were unmasked many years ago.

To my knowledge, only one whisky company ignored the tell-tale signs and it has only recently admitted that many of the "vintage" whiskies it purchased (and made such a fuss about) are fakes.

I can't remember any other whisky-making companies selling pre-WW1 "vintage" bottles on-line, or creating "replica" brand extension lines based on whiskies that were claimed to be of pre-WW1 vintage. If anyone knows of any exceptions, I'm sure many folks would be very interested to see details posted here.

Re people being unable to tell the difference between a standard and a premium blend, or even between a blend and a single malt - it certainly gets reported every so often in the media, Rudy.

But of course it doesn't make it any more legal, to fill a bottle with whisky which does not match the description on the label, and sell it to an unsuspecting customer! And you wouldn't expect a reputable company to do such a thing, surely! :shock:
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fakes

Postby richard » Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:09 pm

can anybody tell me where the bottles come from i believe italy comes to mind and who were checking these bottles were genuine any help on this subject
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Postby Ash » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:57 am

can anybody tell me where the bottles come from i believe italy comes to mind and who were checking these bottles were genuine any help on this subject


Err.......You could try reading the thread :!: :roll:
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Postby Jonas » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:51 pm

The latest article in WM (issue 41) doesn't exactly improve the picture of Macallan:

* Other distillers (Allied, Chivas, Dewar's, Diageo) were also offered suspicious bottles, but promptly declined.
* The quote "It has only now emerged that four of the bottles were not tested [in the first paper and bottle test] as the two experts immediately suspected them as fake".
* Macallan received the liquid test results in December 2003, but did not say anything for quite a few months.
* The 1841 replica is still sold, even though it is based on a fake.
* The auctions continued even though there were serious suspicions.

Classbook example of amateurish handling of the matter from beginning to end. :x
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Postby Rudolph Hucker » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:29 am

Describing the behaviour detailed in this quote as
< amateurish > seems a tad generous.

Other words which might be closer to the mark could include arrogant, bare-faced, cheating, deceitful, evasive, fraudulent, greedy, hypocritical, insulting, jiggery-pokery, knavish, lying, misleading, nasty, outrageous, pathetic, quarrelsome, reprehensible, stupid, third-rate, underhand, vain, weird, x-rated, yobbish and zombie-like.

Although I see that the dictionary defines <amateurish > as imperfect, untrained, so on second thoughts........

Cheers

Rudolph


"Jonas"]The latest article in WM (issue 41) doesn't exactly improve the picture of Macallan:

* Other distillers (Allied, Chivas, Dewar's, Diageo) were also offered suspicious bottles, but promptly declined.
* The quote "It has only now emerged that four of the bottles were not tested [in the first paper and bottle test] as the two experts immediately suspected them as fake".
* Macallan received the liquid test results in December 2003, but did not say anything for quite a few months.
* The 1841 replica is still sold, even though it is based on a fake.
* The auctions continued even though there were serious suspicions.

Classbook example of amateurish handling of the matter from beginning to end. :x[/quote]
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Postby Lawrence » Mon Aug 09, 2004 2:42 pm

I agree, the Macallan handled it poorly.
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Postby Admiral » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:32 am

Yes, poorly handled indeed.

But let's take a moment to examine the replica whiskies themselves.....after all the fuss and bother, are they actually decent whiskies to drink?

There is no doubt they are overpriced for their taste value - you're essentially drinking a vatting of some mostly young-ish Macallans, but paying a price worthy of a 30yo.

I tried the 1861 replica. It was nice & drinkable, but it did lack complexity. If anything, it was restrained and flat. It was certainly not worth the AUS$300 price tag, and this is what annoys me the most.

I know perfectly well that a big price tag does not necessarily equate to being an excellent whisky. But the whiskies that do have a big price tag are usually justified because they are old (i.e. 20+ years); the distillery is silent or gone; or it's a rare, single cask, cask-strength bottling.

The Macallan replicas don't satisfy any of those criteria! The vatting contains a majority of younger casks, rather than very old ones; the distillery is certainly not quiet or rare; and since many casks went into the vatting, it is hardly an exclusive rare cask. Even the limited number of bottles produced was actually quite generous!

Market these malts by all means (it's not all that different to them marketing their Travel Series based on the 20's, 30's, 40's, and 50's), even if they are based on non-genuine originals, but charge a price that is commensurate with what is in the bottle.

My two bob's worth....
Admiral
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Postby Aidan » Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:52 am

When I see very old Irish whiskeys coming up for sale, many many of them are Italian imports. I would be very suspicious of these, although I don't know for sure.
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fakes

Postby richard » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:03 pm

i dont want to go through all the replies a hint would be usefull i hope somebody will helpful with this
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Postby Iain » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:16 am

Richard, If you don't have the latest Whisky Mag, you can read the opening paras of the latest article by DB summarising developments here:

http://www.whiskymag.com/magazine/issue ... n_end.html
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thanks

Postby richard » Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:01 pm

thank you iain for your help i should get the latest mag i used to get it from my local news agent but he let me down at chrisrmas so i told him what to do i will have to subscribe as i used to thanks for the help all the best richard
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Postby Iain » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:36 am

From the Mac website

"New auctions are planned for 2005"

The autumn 2004 auctions must have been cancelled.
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Postby maltcollector » Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:20 pm

where there is a market to make money, you will always find rogue elements, take caution in your purchases.
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Fake Macallan

Postby Rudolph Hucker » Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:30 pm

I am so annoyed with myself - I hate to miss any anniversary. :oops:

AndI had forgotten that it was on January 1 2003 that MacAndersson started this thread.

That's 2 years and one month - and unless I have missed it, still no posting on this forum from the Company.

Full marks for stubbornness, guys, but none for transparency.

cheers

Rudolph
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