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new ardbeg

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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:48 pm

Di Blasi wrote:All your points are informative and well taken Nick and irishwhiskeychaser, thanks! I haven't been doing this for so long, and I have lots to learn. It actually reminds me of the very special 40y Bruichladdich that was going for 1000£, now it's still available for 750£. It will be interesting to watch, and look back on this conversation when the dust of the marketing clears.


We all have lots to learn but it's half the fun argueing about it..... :wink: )i.e. pretending I know what I'm talking about :lol: :lol: :lol: )

By the way this brings me to another issue why do the distilleries think they can get away with huge prices when the Independants only charge regular prices. Actual values one might say with the usual profit margin.

Just to give you a feel I did a search on Loch Foyne for 40yo whisky. Results may be surpriing to some. Mainly IB's though and the prices are before the 17.5% vat is added.

1.Ben Nevis S 1975 30yo 64.3%alc. (Ben Nevis) £82.47
2.Glenfiddich OB 40yo 44%alc. Wooden Box (Glenfiddich) £757.45
3.Bruichladdich DT 1966 40yo 42%alc. [ww] (Anniversary Whiskies) £141.28
4.Bruichladdich OB 1964 40yo 43.1%alc. [ww] (Anniversary Whiskies) £761.70
5.Bruichladdich DT 1966 40yo 42%alc. [ww] (Anniversary Whiskies) £141.28
6.Invergordon DT 1965 40yo 50%alc. (Grain Whiskies) £69.70
7.Glen Mhor G&M 1965 40yo 43%alc. (Glen Mhor) £81.70
8.Strathisla G&M 40yo 40%alc. (Strathisla) £79.15
9.Dew Of Ben Nevis Single Blend OB 40yo 40%alc. (Dew Of Ben Nevis / Dewar's) £112.77
10.Strathisla G&M 40yo 40%alc. [ww] (Anniversary Whiskies) £75.32
11.Bruichladdich OB 1964 40yo 43.1%alc. (Bruichladdich) £761.70
12.Glen Grant G&M 1958 40yo 40%alc. (Glen Grant) £108.94
13.Strathisla G&M 1964 40yo 40%alc. (Strathisla) £78.30
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Postby Aidan » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:56 pm

irishwhiskeychaser wrote:
Di Blasi wrote:All your points are informative and well taken Nick and irishwhiskeychaser, thanks! I haven't been doing this for so long, and I have lots to learn. It actually reminds me of the very special 40y Bruichladdich that was going for 1000£, now it's still available for 750£. It will be interesting to watch, and look back on this conversation when the dust of the marketing clears.


We all have lots to learn but it's half the fun argueing about it..... :wink: )i.e. pretending I know what I'm talking about :lol: :lol: :lol: )

By the way this brings me to another issue why do the distilleries think they can get away with huge prices when the Independants only charge regular prices. Actual values one might say with the usual profit margin.

Just to give you a feel I did a search on Loch Foyne for 40yo whisky. Results may be surpriing to some. Mainly IB's though and the prices are before the 17.5% vat is added.

1.Ben Nevis S 1975 30yo 64.3%alc. (Ben Nevis) £82.47
2.Glenfiddich OB 40yo 44%alc. Wooden Box (Glenfiddich) £757.45
3.Bruichladdich DT 1966 40yo 42%alc. [ww] (Anniversary Whiskies) £141.28
4.Bruichladdich OB 1964 40yo 43.1%alc. [ww] (Anniversary Whiskies) £761.70
5.Bruichladdich DT 1966 40yo 42%alc. [ww] (Anniversary Whiskies) £141.28
6.Invergordon DT 1965 40yo 50%alc. (Grain Whiskies) £69.70
7.Glen Mhor G&M 1965 40yo 43%alc. (Glen Mhor) £81.70
8.Strathisla G&M 40yo 40%alc. (Strathisla) £79.15
9.Dew Of Ben Nevis Single Blend OB 40yo 40%alc. (Dew Of Ben Nevis / Dewar's) £112.77
10.Strathisla G&M 40yo 40%alc. [ww] (Anniversary Whiskies) £75.32
11.Bruichladdich OB 1964 40yo 43.1%alc. (Bruichladdich) £761.70
12.Glen Grant G&M 1958 40yo 40%alc. (Glen Grant) £108.94
13.Strathisla G&M 1964 40yo 40%alc. (Strathisla) £78.30


You can get a Hart Brothers Ben Nevis for 145 euro...
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Postby Di Blasi » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:04 pm

Excellent suggestions there! I guess it all depends on what one can afford, and wants to drink or invest in. And if that price is fair of course.
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Postby bamber » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:07 pm

Pull the names out of a hat. £2100. I assume they are joking. Perhaps they'll throw in a beating for free.

Hey, I love the 10yo, but I feel myself turning against these guys.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:26 pm

It's a trick that supermarkets use on products that are nearing their death date. You call the price a "manager's special" and limit the product to two per customer. As night follows day, customers take up their allocation of two and curse the fact they're not allowed a third.
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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:50 pm

bamber wrote:Pull the names out of a hat. £2100. I assume they are joking. Perhaps they'll throw in a beating for free.

Hey, I love the 10yo, but I feel myself turning against these guys.


I agree but I wonder are we getting slightly carried away by just one bottling (admittedly me being a major detractor) as alot of my comments are supposition ..... however if they start bringing these out willy nilly then yes I'll be in your gang too :wink:
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Postby shane » Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:09 pm

When a Distillery sells their oldest cask of whisky they own, it surely is going to be pricey. I agree it is expensive but on the flip side they will sell every bottle and fast no doubt. They only have 1 cask of a 1965 that yields 261 bottles, but there are 1000's of Ardbeg collectors out there who want to buy a bottle of this (or try at least). I would be very surprised if there was any left on the shelves in 4 weeks time. We all want a bottle of this (200,000+ of us) but with 261 bottles only, they have to put this huge price on it to slow the demand otherwise every Tom, Dick or Harry will be out roaming all the bottle shops and cleaning out the stock before most of us get out of bed. And guess where these bottles start appearing, Ebay, whiskyauction, christies, forum pages etc. you get the drift. I would rather the distillery make the money for this cask and ensure they are always profitable so that you and I can enjoy the more affordable Ardbegs at least. and as for the opportunists out there too bad the distillery will make most of the profit this time. Look at the Macallan Seasonal cask and Woodland bottling, opportunists are all over ebay making more money on these bottles than the distillery itself, in turn the distillery is thinking twice about doing these sorts of bottlings in future as they are now "quote" AWARE Of THE PROBLEM "unquote". This sort of opportunism spoils it for all of us who want that special bottling at a reasonable price. Good luck to anyone out there who gets to try this Ardbeg.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:12 pm

Hi again IWC and everyone else,
firstly, please let me say that I am not trying to justify the high price that Ardbeg have put on this bottle.
They are coming up with lots of hype and funny little ideas - like the islay sand in the glass of the bottle ........etc ....
I also think that the intial price is very high!

I also think it's worth noting that Glenmorangie were always most upset with the second-hand / collector market prices on their special editions and always wanted to increase prices so that they would get what they saw as their share of the profits.

There may be more than just a small element of this in the price of this bottle!

But, regardless of this initial price, I still believe in my earlier comments about the potential of investment in this bottle.

At the same time, I agree with the comments that some less wealthy collectors and many of the normal collecting and drinking "Ardbeg public" may not want them to go down this road as it may indeed seem rather elitist and cost them dearly in the longer term.

If this is truly a one-off then I see no problems.
If this is the first of many, then it could well be a slippery road that Ardbeg will, at some point in the future, wish they had not taken.

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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:20 pm

Malt-Teaser wrote:
If this is truly a one-off then I see no problems.
If this is the first of many, then it could well be a slippery road that Ardbeg will, at some point in the future, wish they had not taken.

MT



Yes I'd actually would agree with that... if what shane says is true and say it's the last csak from the 60's I can go with that but I'd hate to see this as a trend...... Any more last remaining casks in your warehouses Ardbeg?

I think that we may have flogged poor ol' Ardbeg 1965 to death at this stage... :?

I love a good discussion though 8)
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Postby Aidan » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:24 pm

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, of course. I nobody knew this cask existed, nobody would want it. Ardbeg is a business and has to try to get maximum profit. Of course, this can be affected if people get annoyed with thier marketing. It's worth whatever someone is prepared to pay for it, so we'll see how it sells.
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Postby les taylor » Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:32 pm

The question is who has entered the Ardbeg draw of intent. There is only 50 winners and 20 on the reserve list. I thought there was 261 bottles where are the other 191 bottles going. No sorry its 211 the reserve is only if the 50 don't tack up the offer.
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Postby Frodo » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:14 pm

My only concern is what PLC Glenmorangie charges for the 10yr Ardie and if they will eventually increase the number of expressions (perhaps a 15yr) at reasonable prices. If this is done, I have no problem with the company trying to capitalize on limited run bottlings at outragous prices. If the bottlings are going to be pricy anyway I would prefer that the company gets the profit before the speculators do.
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Postby adogranonthepitch » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:59 pm

in terms of getting their money back.......

try £300,000,000 Louis Vitton Moet Hennessey paid for Glenmorangie plc. Glen Moray, very nice but worth £10m tops. So that leaves 'Morangie, and no matter how many finishes, it still doesnt make the £290m up, so its over to Islay!

The '65 was never meant for us mere mortals, us anoracks at the end of the train station platform, this is big boys league stuff.

Lets as laugh in their face, as every ussion business man buys all the stock up of these bottles, remember, its only fermenated barley juice!

Just becuase its old, doesnt mean its good.

If you buy it as an investment, lets be honest, there are beeter buys out there to buy to make your 'wedge'...... If you drink, well lets be honest, most of you lot wouldny open a 1974 or 1975 bottle. I know I havent ... yet.

So let this be a rich mans plaything, and lets get on with our passion.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:15 pm

Les,
100 have been reserved (or already sold) for 'certain' UK shops.

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Postby Jan » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:49 pm

Nick Brown wrote:Really? Ardbeg produced a 1972 in similar numbers a couple of years ago and it is still sitting around on shelves at the initial purchase price of £280.


Actually they released a number of 1972 casks at the same time, for different markets.

One for the UK, one for France etc.

One of these casks ended up in Denmark, bottled for the Danish Importer Juuls (As part of their anniversary "ping" series)

I popped in at Juuls the other day and was told that they now are down to six bottles - now selling for DK 7.500,- (£695). They have been rising steadily in retail prices, but I think most sold when they were in the £2-300 range.

So: six left at the importer/bottler - and of course a few around in the shops around the country... but it seems they have sold rather well.

bamber wrote:Hey, I love the 10yo, but I feel myself turning against these guys.


Bamber & others:
Why turn against Ardbeg? I mean, Yes, the 1965 is not released for the likes of us - but as long as they keep releasing excellent whiskies at affordable prices, I for one can't really fault them.

Cheers
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Postby parvus » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:58 am

I can understand people seem to have a problem with this particular release, but it boggles me that some of you are so fickle as to talk about turning your back on a distillery that has probably provided you much enjoyment.

I don't go around being angry with Lamborghini or Mercedes for making such disgustingly opulent and expensive cars, I shrug my shoulders and wonder why someone would spend so much money on a car. I accept that they are catering to an extremely small, and rich, niche within a niche.

On the other hand, if people are going to 'leave' Ardbeg in droves, perhaps the price will come down on some of their other 'rare' bottlings.

On yer bikes!
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Postby Lawrence » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:47 am

I find the hostility a little odd also, how come nobody complained when Macallan released a 50 year old at a similar price? Or Glenfiddich or Glenfarclas? If you had to wait 40 years to get paid you'd charge a premium also.

In any case everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
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Postby Aidan » Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:41 am

Lawrence wrote:I find the hostility a little odd also, how come nobody complained when Macallan released a 50 year old at a similar price? Or Glenfiddich or Glenfarclas? If you had to wait 40 years to get paid you'd charge a premium also.

In any case everybody is entitled to their own opinion.


Well, as I said earlier, they can charge what they like for their whisky - it's a business afterall. The only small problem I see is that they seem to have an issue with people making money from their whisky as if they are only concerned in getting great whisky to whisky lovers. This is clearly not the case.
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Postby les taylor » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:13 am

Thanks MT that still leaves a hundred bottles. Is this the angels share perhaps. :o
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Postby bamber » Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:51 am

Jan wrote:
bamber wrote:Hey, I love the 10yo, but I feel myself turning against these guys.


Bamber & others:
Why turn against Ardbeg? I mean, Yes, the 1965 is not released for the likes of us - but as long as they keep releasing excellent whiskies at affordable prices, I for one can't really fault them.

Cheers
Jan


Oh don't get me wrong I'll still drink the stuff, I just mean I'll stop championing them. To be honest there's a few things: I thought the Oogling was too expensive (I was demonstrably wrong !), They had nothing to offer at whisky live (save the 10yo and Oogie senior) and now this 'raffle' for the 40yo. The guy at the Ben Nevis stand poured me a massive dram of their 40yo (which costs ~£120). That kind of stuff makes you like a brand.

The current 10yo is a bargain. As we know, there's a lot of old stuff in that one. Time will tell if the new one shapes up and if Ardbeg continues to curry favour with the cognoscenti, or whether they become the new Macallan.

Anyway as adogranonthepitch pointed out, this bottle is not for us, it's for wealthy collectors or show offs, with money to burn.
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Postby dram_time » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:29 am

To be honest, while aged whisky is nice, I much prefer to drink a younger malt than an aged one, e.g. Sub 15 years. I find the flavours crisper, sharper and easier to detect on my un-trained palette. On top of these younger malts are far cheaper and accessible to most people.

Given the choice of a dram of the Ardbeg 40 or very young, it would be the very young every time.

Dt
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Postby adogranonthepitch » Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:29 am

something came to me last night .....

this bottle has been in the UK magazine - GQ August edition - since the 4th of July (this was when it was released).

As nobody spotted this - as it would have been all over this site, does this mean all of us arent 'cool enough' or have enough style, as we dont buy the magazine?

Hmmmmmmm...... :wink:
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Postby Spirit of Islay » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:25 am

shane wrote:When a Distillery sells their oldest cask of whisky they own, it surely is going to be pricey. I agree it is expensive but on the flip side they will sell every bottle and fast no doubt. They only have 1 cask of a 1965 that yields 261 bottles, but there are 1000's of Ardbeg collectors out there who want to buy a bottle of this (or try at least). I would be very surprised if there was any left on the shelves in 4 weeks time. We all want a bottle of this (200,000+ of us) but with 261 bottles only, they have to put this huge price on it to slow the demand otherwise every Tom, Dick or Harry will be out roaming all the bottle shops and cleaning out the stock before most of us get out of bed. And guess where these bottles start appearing, Ebay, whiskyauction, christies, forum pages etc. you get the drift. I would rather the distillery make the money for this cask and ensure they are always profitable so that you and I can enjoy the more affordable Ardbegs at least. and as for the opportunists out there too bad the distillery will make most of the profit this time. Look at the Macallan Seasonal cask and Woodland bottling, opportunists are all over ebay making more money on these bottles than the distillery itself, in turn the distillery is thinking twice about doing these sorts of bottlings in future as they are now "quote" AWARE Of THE PROBLEM "unquote". This sort of opportunism spoils it for all of us who want that special bottling at a reasonable price. Good luck to anyone out there who gets to try this Ardbeg.


Nicely put Shane !
After all it's their bottles they can do with it what they like ( where have i heard that before ?) .
Regarding the rarity of this , i've never seen a 65 before , seen 1963/4's by Gordon and Macphails and 1967's by Signatory and Douglas Laings so i would say yes it's a rarity .
Yes i agree it's pricey (needless to say i won't be buying one ) but it's been a laugh reading the comments saying that it's disgusting selling it at this price especially as they are mostly by the same people who say it's ok to profit by Ardbeg on E-bay , something comes to mind but i'm too much of a gentleman to post it here......

Bit OTT but it's nice to see the likes of Lawrence , Jan etc keeping it in perspective !

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Postby shane » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:47 am

Hi Guys, in case you were not aware, this project on the 40 YO Ardbeg isn't new. If you look in the Jim Murrays whisky bible he actually scores this whisky as a work in progress and if my memory serves me correctly he even states that its release date is July 2006.
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Postby Spirit of Islay » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:53 am

BTW did anyone recognise Christine Logans Mum on the Ardbeg Video ?
Nice film !

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Postby MGillespie » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:10 pm

I have an interview with Stuart Thomson talking about the Ardbeg 1965 on the new episode of WhiskyCast...

Mark
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Postby Aidan » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:21 pm

Mark - I heard the interview. He's honest about whether he'd buy one...
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Postby Deactivated Member » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:27 pm

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone is taking umbrage at this. (Ask your doctor if umbrage is right for you.) It's a one-off prestige bottling. It may get snapped up quickly, with subsequent escalation of collector's price; or it may sit on the shelves for a while. I really think the marketing guys much prefer the latter, as it is worth far more to them for a bottle of their product to be seen priced at £2,000, than to actually get the £2,000. And as I've said more than once, spending £2,000 on a bottle of whisky says more about what £2,000 means to you than about the whisky.

If Ardbeg's value is inflated, whose doing is that? It's you and I, folks--the consumers who create demand. The producers are foolish if they don't take advantage. It's not even taking advantage--it's just recognizing the reality of the marketplace.

iwc said, "Disingenuous is a good description as they are trying to create a demand through PR." Well, that's never been done before, has it? It's called marketing. (Excuse me being a smartass, 'chaser.)

And "I can understand a distillery trying to maximise the profit they can make over the collectors reselling market but there's a limit that people will accept." So there is. There's a limit to what I'll spend for a bottle of Ten, too. That's what the market is all about.

I just don't see a controversy here. I'm never going to get a bottle of this in any case, no matter how they price it. Maybe this is the beginning of an Ardbeg backlash, the inevitable crash after a spike in popularity. Shades of Revilo.
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Postby Lawrence » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:44 pm

Shades of Revilo


NO! We're all friends here and we may disagree on some points but let's not go down that road again. I've just come out of therapy and it cost me £2,200, I wonder what I could have spent the cash on instead?

:lol:
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Postby MGillespie » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:34 pm

T, I agree with you on everything except the Revilo comment (may he rest in peace)...

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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:00 pm

To be quite honest I'm not umbraged :lol: about it at all....

Just a debate guys :roll:

It's nearly like we've slighted a family member :lol:

Anyway if you read all my comments you will realise that I have stated that we should not get carried away with this one bottling, and I don't think I was being negative towards Ardbeg and if I came across that way, well I did not mean to.


As Lawrence says no point falling out about this ... hope the therapy was worth it Lawrence :wink:

That's me washing my hands on this subject and lets all stay friends :) come on you can't refuse a smile :D .


Excuse my ignorance but who is Revilo anyway :?: :?: :?
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Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:11 am

No huhu, iwc. We are all generally able to disagree in a respectful manner. Alas, that brings us to...

Revilo (not his real name) was a longtime member here who had been a fanatic Macallan devotee, but became an equally fanatic critic of Macallan and Edrington Group (Macallan's owners) when they seemed not to live up to his standards any longer. He seemed to take the release of the Fine Oak line (among other things) as a personal betrayal, and went on and on and on about how the House of Macallan had fallen. It was really tiresome. By invoking the ghost of Revilo, I meant to express the hope that there would not be a similar irrational backlash against Ardbeg.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:32 am

I have no problem with Ardbeg charging whatever they like. I do, though, worry that some people might invest in the belief they are guaranteed to double their money in double quick time when I think the investment potential is rather less certain. Having said that, I'm quite willing to have my scepticism proved wrong.

I do also find the "raffle" idea distasteful as I believe it is intended to mislead people into believing that the demand is higher than I suspect it really is. If you share my concerns about this, consider what would happen if lots of people entered and then npbody bought!
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Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:17 pm

Nick Brown wrote:I do also find the "raffle" idea distasteful as I believe it is intended to mislead people into believing that the demand is higher than I suspect it really is.


But Nick...that's what it was made for!

:P
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Postby bamber » Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:26 pm

MGillespie wrote:T, I agree with you on everything except the Revilo comment (may he rest in peace)...

Mark


Mark / anyone do we know what happened to Oliver for sure ?
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