Long-term storage of whiskies

[Deactivated Member]

Dear all,

This topic, albeit neither new nor interesting to all, remains in my mind unanswered to a degree.

Most of us collectors intend to store whiskies for the next five to twenty years. Depending on the cork quality, this fragile seal that stands between the precious liquid inside the bottle and the air outside, offers but a limited protective barrier. As time passes, the level of whisky can be observed to go down on occasion in unopened bottles.

What indeed can be done about this undesired phenomena? Has anyone come up with creative solutions? Should the cork-area of each bottle be covered by wax past the lead seal line? Should the bottles each be placed in a vacuum-sealed plastic bag?

In my university, I have observed the biology department to smear thick layer of vaseline around the corks of their formaldehyde and alcohol stored samples of insects or other animals to prevent evaporation.

Alcohol vapours have a nasty habit of penetrating materials such as plastic wraps etc.

I would be interested in hearing fellow collectors' tips and observations.

[irishwhiskeychaser]

I am not 100% sure but my guess (and that is all it is) is that the majority of ulage (fancy word for evapouration) is caused by a dry cork.

It is important to make sure that the bottle is stored upright as continious contact with the cork will result in the cork deteriorating however a certian amount of moisture shuold be allowed to preserve the seal. I would regularly turn my corked bottles upside down to do this and I have not noticed much ulage but then again I have only been collecting seriously for 4-5 years.

[kildalton]

well, it's a tough matter.
As said before it's important to store Your bottles upside,
but other things are very important:
1)avoid sudden and extreme temperature gaps
2)store them away from light(the best in their own tubes if you have them).(i keep mine well closed in a thick wood cabinet and I just see them only when I open the its small doors or just the ones under crystal windows but these have their tubes...)
3)Some enviromental moisture might help.

I know that this means losing visual pleasure but you could be reasonably sure that your collection will stand untouched.
I do this regularly and at the moment my bottles are all high fill neck(unless I had got them in other conditions).

I hope this might help...

[Deactivated Member]

I must admit, I am surprised at how little we as collective seem to pay attention to keeping whiskies in a bottle good and with minimum evaporation as long as possible! (and I say this only to true collectors - so as not to be scolded by a wave of 'whiskies are meant to be drank' comments).

Bottles do not breathe, so the only worry is the cork area. With screw corked miniatures, I have noticed mentions of ´sealed with laquer´. Could someone please elaborate a tad, and explain the intricacies of this method?

As for full-size bottles, at this day and age, we should surely be able to come up with some magnificent space-age sealing system that could be applied on top of the cork and lead, which would guarantee less evaporation?

[Di Blasi]

So the bottles that have experienced lots of evaporation, featured in the "Collector's Corner" of this magazine would be worth even more than they are? Or are these collectable bottles meant to be sold to people that actually want to drink them one day, and prefer a full bottle to being cheated a bit? Of course I'd rather collect or purchase a non-evaporated bottle, but I assume greater value would be lost if an after bottling, (and not from the distillery or bottler) wax seal is placed on it. Either science, history, or testing must be examined to insure prevention of evaporation. But is that for sure?? The conditions of storage already mentioned are of course the best bet, but they're will always be a faulty cork somewhere. Any way to figure that out? I'd figure it would have been done already, and solved, to save wasted whisky, and wine of course. I truly don't think there is any 100% method to insure bottles don't evaporate.

[kildalton]

One might considerate if a good method to prevent bottles from evaporation would be economic for the industry.
Nowadays we're getting used in seeing the business becaming more oriented towards profit, to the extent that in several cases it even overcomes the quality of the final product.( )
My hope is that maybe they could "do something more"for high end bottlings, there're really expensive botlles and so I think they should be protected(if possible)a little more.

I personally like when they came with wax covered corks(a la couvreur or one bunnahabhain i recently saw)but even this does not make us sure bottles to be more protected.

[irishwhiskeychaser]

I have noticed mentions of ´sealed with laquer´. Could someone please elaborate a tad, and explain the intricacies of this method?

You see this alot in Miniatures which seem to suffer a sadder fate that full bottles. This is where the owner has actually painted laquer around the seal hoping it will prevent ulage (evapouration from a bottle). Also you may see clear tape, candle wax or even specifically created seal strips used.

My personal feeling on these methods is it does not work and it is something that storage methods are the best employed to prevent.

Further they are unsightly and actually can cause damage to the true appearance of the packaging. For a serious collector He'd prefer not to see any such tampering with bottles. With screw caps it is sometimes as simple just to give the cap a little twist to ensure that the cap is as tight as possible.

One might considerate if a good method to prevent bottles from evaporation would be economic for the industry.
Nowadays we're getting used in seeing the business becaming more oriented towards profit, to the extent that in several cases it even overcomes the quality of the final product.( )
My hope is that maybe they could "do something more"for high end bottlings, there're really expensive botlles and so I think they should be protected(if possible)a little more.

I suppose the real situation here is that fundamentally and historically whiskey has never been bottled to keep for really long periods in the first place. It is a consumable and the expectancy from a producer is that when it is sold it will be consumed over a period of time. You actually find that a cork does it's job very well for the first few years. It is only a relatively new scenario that people are actually buying bottles to form a part of a long term collection. I'm talking now on a wide scale as we have always had a few massive collections built up over long periods but they were very few in days of yore. However now days you have thousands and thousands of collectors and it is a massive business.

I am a collector but I understand that the whiskey was bottled and sold to be drunk not hoarded so I accept this as a fact of life and would not expect the industry to spend millions on devising a new cap so I can keep my whiskey at exactly 700mls year after year. And that would be my slant on the issue.

[kildalton]

Irishwhiskeychaser, I find Your point of view clever and correct.
Yes whisky is meant for drinking, this is right!
Anyway as a collector (and maybe it could be the same for other collectors as well) sometimes I feel a bit worried for my bottles.
Some of them are really precious to me(and I don't speak of their real value, but just of the "affective" side)so I'd like to have the best chances for them to be preserved.
(My reason for collecting starts from the love towards art and tradition, to me great bottles are a form of art and I like the idea to save them.
Think if we could have a tape with mozart playing...No one will ever listen to him, but we have the chance to save some truly exceptional liquid art...
Well sorry for the digression )

[Leither]

Jon, Mark and Robbo do a great job with a rather swish wax seal on their bottles over a wooden-topped cork.

I popped open a Smokey, Peaty One at the weekend and beneath the purple wax seal was a ribbon, inbedded with a thin line of clear double-sided adhesive plastic. Aberlour A'Bunadh have something similar to this with a red wax seal.

One thing for sure is that it makes the product look better - yes, I know it's what it in the bottle that counts but it's nice to open a wax-sealed bottle and then plop the cork for the first time.

I think more producers should follow this example as it makes the bottle more authentic and must help keep the alcohol from escape. Certainly would help for collectable/high-end bottles and it can't be that expensive as JMR products are in the range of £15-20.

[maverick]

I'm not trying to bash collectors here, but what do you think storing bottles does for the whiskey? Do you think it's like wine or cigars? That they age and new flavors come to life? Considering most whiskeys are already stored for years and years in casks, I don't really understand how they can evolve more after the whiskey has been bottled.

[bamber]

Whisky gets no better but get good financial return though. I expect I'll get into it at some point.

[maverick]

still can't follow. I mean, as you said, it doesn't change, so why would a whiskey from 1986 be more "valuable" than a 2006. I f it's the same stuff and tastes the same why would someone then pay loads more for the older one?

[bamber]

Becuase it is rarer I guess. People like to collect rare old things.

[Drrich1965]

still can't follow. I mean, as you said, it doesn't change, so why would a whiskey from 1986 be more "valuable" than a 2006. I f it's the same stuff and tastes the same why would someone then pay loads more for the older one?

One could ask that questions about anything that is collectible, in fact. The simple answer is, there are people willing to pay for it, for whatever reasons. Of course you can assess which factors lead to item one increasing more than item two; the rub for collectors.

In any event, there is room for all of us here, for those who only drink, and for those who drink and collect, and for those who mostly collect (I assume few don't drink our water of life at all, but even they can be forgiven too ).

As I have learned in life, better to be kind than right, at times

[Deactivated Member]

Maverick: Why is an old Bugatti car from 1920's or 1930's considered valuable today? I mean, even the technology is outdated, the car doesn't contain the luxury features and amenities that todays cars do. And certainly it must drive like an old piece of junk when compared to the smooth sailing of today's vehicles?!

Right..Maybe it is valuable because there were not so many around in the first place. Perhaps the fact that few survived to see this era has something to do with it. Perhaps also the fact that none will ever be made, certainly not in the same way at least. My goodness, we have discovered a collectible!

I would say that most likely even the same standard bottling of a whisky was made to taste a bit different thirty years ago than today. Which is better, is a matter of taste, but no comparison is possible ever unless some 'sad' collector has kept the older bottlings closed until this day.

With unique vintages, or single cask whiskies, or other types of limited releases it becomes fairly obvious that unless someone keeps these bottles for the future, the people then cannot ever taste or experience (not even see) this product. Some may see no value in this type of excercize, others may indeed see value in it. To me each whisky bottle represents a piece of history to some extent. Another aspect of collecting is the possible financial gain. I have two bottles of Ardbeg 1975 vintage at home. I have tasted this whisky, and loved it. I do not, however, any more make this whisky the tipple of the day personally, as I believe that there's plenty of existing whiskies to sample. These bottles may rise in price so much that I consider them too expensive to drink (at least both of them - or at least unless I win lottery and can say bugger-all to financial concerns).

As a commercial product, Whisky has a high alcohol content, and as such it has properties that make it possible to keep for long periods of time in reasonably good condition. It fits the long-term collectible bill well, better than most wines for example.

I started this chain of conversation due to the fact that I've noticed a drop in the level inside some oldest bottles of mine, despite of keeping them stored upright, in a closed closet, at steady temperature. Obviously this is not sufficient to totally stop the effects of time in all cases from affecting the whisky bottles.

I am now trying to conduct some studies to various materials which could perhaps be put on top of the closed bottles' neck and mouth; materials which would not leave any marks on the bottle itself or the lead etc., but which would assist in sealing the bottle far better. I have been thinking of a seal or a sleeve made of some form of reasonably think silicone or rubber, that stretches enough that one could slip it in place and remove it without any harm to the bottle. I am not certain if alcohol vapours pass though these materials, or if they do, how well they do this.

Personally I feel that there may even be a small niche market for such a product, should someone decide to experiment and productize it. Collecting alcohol products is after all quite a popular hobby, and well, if you have such a product, and sell each seal for 1.75 euros for example, and manage to sell it to 15,000 collectors in first year, each averaging a collection of give or take 70 bottles, well...There's a real business case.

Such items could be easily sold via internet, minimum marketing, storage & sales cost, reaching the whole world..Sounds actually quite lucrative! And one would have the added satisfaction of thousands of happy customers worldwide. Goodness, I would buy such a product at a reasonable price if I had any proof at all that it does the job - after all, I VALUE my whiskies!

At this point cornering this market is very possible. Please give credit for the idea, anyone who actually takes this up.

[kildalton]

In Your opinion is better a cork or a screw cap?
I would be driven in thinking that if the grip is strong maybe a screw might be better...(Am I in error here? )

[Deactivated Member]

Both are propably good in ideal condition, but I certainly have seen many a screwcork allow some evaporation or even allow actual leakage due to faults in the cork and its fitting to the glass bottle's design.

[lambda]

M.R.J, have you considered using parafilm for your bottles? This is widely available and claims to serve this purpose. It's cheap too..

[maverick]

Alright MRJ, let me try to explain myself. ´First of all let me say that I do understand the concept of "vintage" and I understand why a bugatti from the 20's can be seen as a collectible, because they are not made anymore which also means they become rare. Therefore, the pricetag also goes up.

So let me sumarize: If you go to the bugatti dealer you won't be able to buy a car from the 20's. You can only get one from their 2006 line. Those two cars are completely different from one another.

With whiskey, (from what I asked in a previous post) I understood that the whiskey (as an example let's say ardbeg 10) doesn't change it's character from the 1920's to present time. I understood it as the whiskey doesn't evolve. Which to me says that the bottle you buy in the 1920 is going to taste exactly the same as if you bought the bottle today. Except, that if you buy the 20's bottle today it's going to cost you considerably more. And that's the only thing I didn't get, because essentially you are buying the same stuff.

With that said, I do understand why people would collect rare whiskeys or limited edition whiskey, because one day they will not be around. I can imagine that the laphroaig quarter cask will appreciate in value as years go by.

I was at first a bit sceptical to the idea that the whiskey can evolve(change its character) once it's been bottled, but if you say that they do change while in the bottle, I believe you!

[Deactivated Member]

Hello Maverick,

Thanks for the reply. Overall, the idea is that once placed in a bottle, it SHOULD NOT CHANGE. So you are quite correct in this, as a matter of fact!

The interaction with outside & inside air may cause small changing in the whisky even during long-term storage - but this is indeed unwanted effect (and of course one of the reasons why I at least would like to find a method to stop this from happening - also because I would wish to keep the whisky 'as new' condition).

Now then, what I was stating is the following: If lagavulin 16yo was put in a bottle in 1960, I am quite certain it is somewhat different from the Lagavulin 16yo that is bottled in 2006. As some experienced collectors have stated, small changes in manufacturing procedures, and quite possibly planned changes in the whisky (distilleries do make modifications to their produce while trying to forecast what the tastes and likes of future folk will be) appear over a time.

I think Laphroaig for a while at least seemed to me a little 'lighter' and less 'medicinal' than in the past. This may be due to changes made on purpose, quite possibly someone predicted that 'in 8 years the crowd's liking will change towards lighter and less phenolic whiskies', and some changes occurred, quietly.

We also know that many distilleries have changed their style over the past years quite drastically, some even from heavily peated malts to unpeated, and vice versa.

Without whisky from earlier years to make comparisons, such changes may become, well, rumours, stuff for legends, claimed by some, disputed by others. Without whiskies available for comparison, we might as well be speaking of the dodo - gone, and only a few (hollow or should I say stuffed) specimen exist. We will never hear the dodo vocalizing, or see it walk. Similarly some old whiskies may be lost for forever.

[Lawrence]

The industry is now starting to acknowledge that whisky in the bottle does actually change over time. At the end of the day it's a perishable product that is designed to be consumed within a few years (hence the semi temporary nature of the sealing device).

Collectors and those who have an 'inventory' will just have to make the best of a deteriorating situation, if you'll excuse the pun.

[irishwhiskeychaser]

With whiskey, (from what I asked in a previous post) I understood that the whiskey (as an example let's say ardbeg 10) doesn't change it's character from the 1920's to present time. I understood it as the whiskey doesn't evolve. Which to me says that the bottle you buy in the 1920 is going to taste exactly the same as if you bought the bottle today. Except, that if you buy the 20's bottle today it's going to cost you considerably more. And that's the only thing I didn't get, because essentially you are buying the same stuff.

More than lightly there will always be a difference between same vintage whiskies but made at different times.

Distilleries are always progressing and it is nigh on impossible to keep a whisky consistent over a long period. However the consistency can be retained relatively.

e.g.

A person Drinking Jameson from the 60's to present could be forgiven from thinking that the whiskey has never changed but that is because they have been aclimatised to the changes through the years. The whiskey has been produced as close as possible to the prior batches but if you taste a 60's bottle against a current bottle the difference is remarkable and could not be considered the same whiskey.

Other scenarios which also may have an effect are....

Slight changes in production methods.
Updating/upgrading machinery.
New prefered ingredients.
Change in quality of casks or supplier of Casks


Talisker is a good example of this.

Talisker 10yo has seen obvious but slight changes in taste over the last 10 years.

I hope this explains the collectablity of older bottlings a bit better. Eventhough they might not neccessairly be better!!!!!!

[dram_time]

Maverick,

Your car theory was spot on, the value has increased because its no longer made. (and so would a malt whisky)

Unfortunately you chose a poor example with a 20’s bottling….

Over 80 years a lot would change within the production at a distillery, so the bottling for 1920 would be no where near the same as one from 2006. but I understand the point you were making…

Once a whisky comes out of the cask that exact same result will never be repeated again due to all the variables that have occurred during….

The barley growing, malting, mashing, water added, distilling, storage in cask etc….

So if, lets say, the famous ‘Glen Googly’ from 1990 was a fantastic bottling, it will always be remembered as such, this does not mean that the 2010 bottling will be as good, it may even be better, may be not! But if its not, there will be some one willing to pay for the superior 1990 bottling, just because its better. Although the ‘said’ collect would not have known this at the time of purchase of the 1990, its his/her risk and the collector takes it.

I am often told ‘whisky doesn’t get better in the bottle you know!!!’, but that’s the point, it will be the same in 10 years when I open it up, in that time the distillery might have closed, or lost its quality, or almost any other adverse change may have happened. The fact is, my bottle will be the same as when I bought it (hopefully) and it may even be worth a little more. And if some one gets a little pleasure (namely me!!) form drinking it in the future then all’s well.

Dt.

[Di Blasi]

But don't many collectors buy bottles, no matter what their condition? Frequently, it's like ebay says, the contents are purely incidental. Do collectors buy to drink or for investment and collection purposes? I'm sure there will always be someone to buy a bottle someone has to sell, under any condition or circumstance.

[Mr Fjeld]

Will whisky bottles really loose a lot of content if kept in a dry dark and not too warm place?

[Deactivated Member]

Personally, if I would buy a bottle for the sake of collecting, should I find any problem with the contents or authenticity of the bottle, I would press charges against the seller without hesitation.

I hope the question of the contents and their quality & condition was purely ironic, because otherwise we might as well be swapping bottles filled with tea..! Or swapping paper labels.

Will whisky bottles really loose a lot of content if kept in a dry, dark not too warm place? Well, depends on how much is 'a lot' to you. To me any loss is already too much. If, for example, after some 6-8 years the bottle's contents have gone down 1 cm on the neck, I am certainly not going to be chuffed.

Overall I fail to see this apparent big rift between collecting and drinking.

What I collect, either myself, or some other lucky (wealthier) person will eventually drink. I don't suppose too many of my bottles will end up eventually in any museum or such.

The question for me is not 'will the contents of these bottles be drank', it is 'when the contents of these bottles will be drank' and 'who will drink these whiskies'.

I've plenty of drams to sip without having to open all my 'collectables'. Nor am I so eager that I could not keep a bottle closed for a few days - weeks - months - years. Suffice to say my alcohol consumption hasn't quite reached that level as yet, thankfully!

[Mr Fjeld]

I understand your sentiments perfectly MRJ. I still wonder if evaporating contents is a common problem. After all there are lots of old bottles for sale on Ebay with all the whisky intact - apparently?

Anyway, I suppose it isn't a problem for me as I don't plan to keep my bottles for that many years. I would think a bottle kept over 5-6 years - in a sensible place and temperature wouldn't be affected at all?

[TheLaddie]

Hi All

While the contents of most of the bottles I have evaporate through being poured into a glass and drunk I've started putting a few collectable bottles aside in the hope they will increase in value (so I can buy more whisky later....)

Aside from the contents a few of them come in tin tubes. Does anyone have any tips on how to protect the tins from rusting in long term storage?

Cheers

[Lawrence]

Are you storing them in a high moister environment? I have tins going back a decade or more and rust is simply not an issue.

[TheLaddie]

Hi Lawrence

Yes they will be in a high moisture environment. England!

I'm keeping them in a dry area so hopefully if your tins are OK mine will be too. They are in an attached garage at the back away from the door boxed and shelved off the floor.

Many thanks

[irishwhiskeychaser]

If they are in cardboard boxes they should be okay(i.e. 12 bottle boxes). I have all mine in cardboard boxes and no issues and I'm in Ireland so we know a thing or two about moisture

But if you are still worried Silica Gel packets will do the trick. I seem to remember that you can get them on ebay.


Sun light will always be your worst enemy for cartons/tin etc

[TheLaddie]

But if you are still worried Silica Gel packets will do the trick. I seem to remember that you can get them on ebay.


Sun light will always be your worst enemy for cartons/tin etc

Excellent. Many thanks for the advice.

Sunlight not likely to be a problem here in South Yorkshire. Funnily enough the only time I had the pleasure of visiting Galway I didn't see a drop of rain and got sunburned. I had to be dragged home...

[irishwhiskeychaser]

Funnily enough the only time I had the pleasure of visiting Galway I didn't see a drop of rain and got sunburned. I had to be dragged home...

Are you sure you were in Ireland



I suppose we are all getting better summers these days .... must be all that whisky production in Scotland

[Deactivated Member]

Hey, Ron and I got sunburned in Orkney, in October! Strange days indeed.

[les taylor]

myself and mrs les sat out in the sun in yorkshire whilst on holiday this october, bueatiful days.

ps. I store mine the same as ladddie but my garage is my workshop/ office. So mine are stored in the office area.