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Whisky Live 2007 - Currency opinion!

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Whisky Live 2007 - Currency opinion!

Postby RufusA » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:10 pm

Just recieved Rebecca's latest email about Whisky Live 2007 and am perturbed by the idea of a currency voucher where you "buy" whisky. So much so that I've registered on here just to post.

I've attended WL for a number of years, and can understand the old voucher system being introduced particularly when there were some who abused the genorosity of stall holders.

However the joy of Whisky Live is the chance to talk to experts try a whisky that you wouldn't normally buy (or wasn't available) and enjoy the atmosphere/variety in a friendly manner.

The moment you introduce a currency the whole atmosphere changes. Stall holders start *selling* you a sample of whiksy, rather than sharing a dram with a "friend" from the distillery. You are reluctant to try two different bottlings from the same distillery if you are buying each one. Also if you are paying £3 for a taste of an older whiksy you want to make sure it's a measured shot - no tiny splashes for you to taste. Stallholders will have less older whiskies to go round if they are giving out full quarter gills. You'll be less inclined to buy a sample of something unknown, in case you don't like it... etc.

The cost also starts to look like poor value, £25 for the entry ticket (doesn't look like the price has gone down by much), plus another £15 for 5 rarer whiskies. Compare that with a typical £25 for a SMWS tasting, with 5 rare whiskies, comfortable surroundings with leather chairs to sit on, cheese and biscuits thrown in, and an expert to talk knowledgably about them. WL Doesn't look like such good value anymore.

IMHO 2007 may be the first WL where I seriously consider not attending!

Rufus.
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Re: Whisky Live 2007 - Currency opinion!

Postby Matt2 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:45 pm

RufusA wrote:The cost also starts to look like poor value, £25 for the entry ticket (doesn't look like the price has gone down by much), plus another £15 for 5 rarer whiskies. Compare that with a typical £25 for a SMWS tasting, with 5 rare whiskies, comfortable surroundings with leather chairs to sit on, cheese and biscuits thrown in, and an expert to talk knowledgably about them.


For £25 I would rather spend 6 hours at Whisky Live with a choice of 100's of different whiskies and talking to 10's of experts rather than 1 hour in a leather chair talking to 1 expert. At WL you get food, water, biscuits etc thown in. Plus all the other bits and pieces going on (Games Zone, Cocktails, Beer Experience, Food and whisky combinations, Whisky Live Forum). Great value for a day out.

Is it really that bad RufusA?
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Postby Paul A Jellis » Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:57 pm

Cocktails, games and beers; and someone telling me that I need to eat! (I still prefer the Chippy around the corner - food plus fresh air!)

£25 to get in, just 5 vouchers, £1 for each voucher after that, plus the cost of getting to London!

Not sure it's for me anymore.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:09 pm

Yeah - It's starting to become a little complicated. Why have cocktails games and beers become as important as whisky at a whisky event?
I can see the need for availability of food and water but the rest seems to be aiming at a new market. Fair enough, but be careful the that only bath water is thrown out!
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Postby fishboy » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:15 pm

I was also very disappointed with the new format (so much so that I won’t be attending WL London this year). I’d like to hear the logic behind making this change – are the WL team trying to appeal to a “less traditional” audience, or is this purely a money making exercise? Is it yet another example of the nanny state making sure we don’t over indulge?

I’d certainly worry about alienating the hardcore clientel who’ve been your bread and butter for years. I’ve always thought if it’s not broken don’t fix it! Will this new format be used at all future WL events? It’ll be interesting to see what the Scots make of it at WL Glasgow 2007.

All the best
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:16 pm

Hello, fishboy, welcome, your opinion is valued here as is everyone's. And now I'm going to take issue with it!

What good is drawing the "hardcore clientele" year after year, if the purpose of the event is to expose people to products and information they are not familiar with? One of the reasons I'm ambivalent about such events in the first place is that I'm not really sure it's worth it to someone who makes an effort to follow the industry already. Why would I even want to go to the Talisker table for a wee nip of the 18, when I've already had a bottle of it and can get another any time? On some level, virtually the entire event is the Talisker table to me. So I certainly can't blame the WL folks if they want to draw a new crowd--that's what it's all about, isn't it?

Just playing devil's advocate here. I'm sure there will be some good answers to this.
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Postby fishboy » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:46 pm

Hi Mr TattieHeid,

Fair point - I agree that bringing whisky to the attention of a new audience is one of the key roles played by events such as WL, but the organisers must try to ensure that this isn’t done at the expense of alienating those who already patronize it. I felt that the half-day tickets offered at Glasgow this year (which included 5 vouchers) presented a great way to attract the casual punter who wanted to learn more about whisky and went a long way to achieving this (to the extent that Saturday afternoon in Glasgow was really very busy).

I also take the point that for someone who follows the industry closely, attending this sort of event might be futile, and I for one don’t try a dram if I already own a bottle of it! On the other hand, WL does encourage you to try things you might normally never taste. For example the Armagnac and Calvados offered by Alchemist were something I would never normally try, but I’ve ended up with a bottle of each (this might not have happened if I’d have to buy extra vouchers before sampling!) Also, I still feel that these events are great for tasting new expressions of old favourites or for sampling a huge range of independent bottlings (which are often sold out by the time whisky magazine or Jim Murray get around to reviewing them!). I also appreciate the interaction between producer and consumer and would agree with RufusA that it’s almost like having a drink with a pal from the distillery. I think that having to spend vouchers like currency (using 3 to try some older malts) will detract from this experience. I also have issues regarding the cost, and £25 per day for 5 vouchers as opposed to £28 for 10 vouchers last year (even with a burger thrown in!) seems like a price increase to me.

All the best

Fish
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Postby MGillespie » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:24 am

I'm of mixed emotions about the voucher system...but after attending the competition's WhiskyFest in NYC earlier this month, which does not use vouchers, I'm beginning to think that it may be a good idea. While I didn't see any of the bad behavior myself, there were apparently a number of jerks who took advantage of the situation...Kevin Erskine has some excellent comments on it at The Scotch Blog...if vouchers limit what some people drink and can keep the bad behavior to a minimum, then I can live with them...

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Postby Lawrence » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:51 am

....or you could just police the room and remove those who are abusing the situation leaving the vast majority to carry on in a responsible fashion.
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Postby Paul A Jellis » Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:46 pm

Mr T

Surely the point of an event like WL is to attract the 'hardcore clientele' not Joe Public off the street. In an event like this you have a room full of people who spend hundreds of pounds (or dollars etc) per annum on their favourite tipple. It is the job of the exhibitors to persuade you to spend your money on the products from their distillery. What other reason are they there for? If it's just for a chat, don't bring samples in the first place.

Events like our own BBC Food Show is a much better place to promote whisky to the, normally, non-whisky drinking population. Even my non-whisky drinking wife bought a bottle from the Compass Box stand last year! This type of event is the place to attract new custom.

For me WL has always been marketed towards the 'hardcore clientele', the people who want more and are prepared to pay more. Joe Public might want to try a 40 yr old malt, but would they ever buy a bottle of it? If that sounds snobbish, then it probably is.

Paul
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Postby The Fachan » Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:10 am

Paul,

As much as everyone wants to believe that Whisky Live is an event for the "hardcore", expert, connieseur, please be realistic. These events are NEVER going to survive without Joe Public. We need the man on the street to interested in exactly the same way we need the expert.

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Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:23 am

I would think the real target would be neither the presumed expert, who is already well-versed in what is going on and already spends quite a lot on whisky, nor Joe Public off the street, who doesn't care what's going on and hasn't spent a penny; but those in between, who have tried and enjoyed, say, the Classic Malts and are looking to learn more. Obviously you want to welcome everyone and have something for everybody, but accommodating different levels of interest and knowledge is quite a trick. When Paul A Jellis strikes up a conversation with susywong and she sizes him up as an appreciative consumer, she may say "I have something here under the table you will be interested in." Then forty glasses appear, as she has reported. I should think the more knowledgeable consumers would be more interested in masterclasses and focused tastings than in visiting the proverbial Talisker table (not to pick on them).

I don't know if the voucher system answers any of this--I'm not here to defend it--but I suppose it at least makes the attendee think a little more about what it will be worth his or her while to try. If attendees have to buy extra ones above the initial allotment, then the screening of drunks and behavior problems can be done at the sale point, instead of dumping it onto the industry folk like susy, who certainly have better things to do.

And Paul, "just a chat" with a knowledgeable and hospitable industry person is more valuable in my mind than any dram. Why else would they be there? You can go pick up a fistful of minis and drink them at home any time, at far greater Frodo Factor. Value per millilitre can't be the point.
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Postby Lawrence » Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:13 pm

To my mind the voucher system is designed to limit the amount of alcohol consumed and is in reaction to a small minoirty abusing the system. I would rather weed out those offenders and not alienate the vast responsible majority.
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Postby adogranonthepitch » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:20 am

I have just listed when i saw this thread.. opps sorry.

How can it be a policing system, when the older the whisky, the more vouchers are required.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:52 am

I've been a regular at Whisky Live in the past.

Each year, I've had a strategy. Perhaps, try a selection of just Speysiders. Or, non-Scottish whisk(e)y only.

In 2006, I focused on malts over 25 years old. During the day (broken up with plenty of food, water and breaks), I tried 10+ fantastic whiskies. Excellent value.

This morning, I received my promo leaflet for 2007. I read that £25 would get me (baubles aside) just 5 vouchers. And they will possibly 'buy' me just 2 drams!

I consider this poor value and won't be going.

The saving of around £55 (£25 admission + £20 train fare + £10 incidentals) will get me a nice bottle or two
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Postby adogranonthepitch » Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:06 pm

just got the flyer, there is a £1.50 booking fee for the tickets!

You spoil us Paragraph Publishing ! :roll:

PS Still think the mag itself is really ace though.
PPS Cant blame you for trying to make some money out this whisky lark.
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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:07 pm

Ya I got the flyer too and just thinking about this a bit more....

Vouchers are £1 each and the older drams are going for 3 vouchers which I actually think is very good value. I'm not going to go to Whisky Live and taste 10 really old whiskies and buy 5 of them. I'd be lucky to buy one. I would see this as a chance to taste whisky, that I would not normally get a chance to taste otherwise, for a very cheap price even if it is only a half dram. Sure a dram of a 12yo would cost me that in Ireland :shock: I could easily see some of these retailing at £20 a dram in a whisky bar.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:11 pm

Irish

The 'bolt on' vouchers are reasonably priced.

Its the initial £25 for only 5 vouchers (plus some food that you've not asked for) that's a bit steep.
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Postby vitara7 » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:08 am

prob still go along for the crack...
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:51 pm

I went to Whisky Live both days in Glaschu this year. I bought full day tickets. I also signed up for two masterclasses - for Pulteney and Glen Grant. I got 30 vouchers thrown in with the tickets. After the masterclasses, my appetite for whisky was severely diminished. At the end of day two, I had nearly a full booklet of tickets left (12 or 13) and couldn't give them away. The event cost me, if memory serves me well, about £80 for whisky, biscuits and water - and, of course, the conversation with whisky experts. This all struck me as being rather expensive, but a price I would pay for a one off event and the opportunity to try new and interesting whiskies. I did try some expensive drams, but I also took the opportunity to try some cheap ones. My principal currency was my maximum alcohol tolerance. And frankly, to get £80 worth of whisky in two days, I'd need to be drinking consistently from a pretty special bottle!

I don't like the sound of variable prices for drams as I think it would really change the character of the event where every whisky can be judged on equal terms alongside all others. The £100+ bottle doesn't carry any extra burden of expectation; nor does it blind you through money invested on it. I would be sorry to lose that. However, I'd welcome the opportunity to have a cheaper entry fee with fewer tickets and the opportunity to top up with tickets as needed. This would mean I didn't feel I had paid for masterclasses twice - once with the ticket and once with the unused couchers. I would also welcome a reprogramming to have the masterclasses at the beginning of the day - even at the risk of running them in competition with one another - rather than have them spread out. Who can really appreciate a Highland Park masterclass after a day's hard dramming?
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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:10 pm

eelbrook wrote:Irish

The 'bolt on' vouchers are reasonably priced.

Its the initial £25 for only 5 vouchers (plus some food that you've not asked for) that's a bit steep.


See your point now.... I suppose like Nick said if you really want to do as much as you can it can be expensive....
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Postby Deactivated Member » Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:58 am

It's not "£25 for only 5 vouchers"--it's £25 to get in the door (or, if you like, £20 to get in and a quid each for five vouchers). Again, if your idea of value for money at this kind of event is measured in millilitres per pound, save yourself all the trouble and go hang out at the Pot Still. I should think all those industry reps have not traveled to your fair city simply to pour you drams. Anybody can do that.

iwc, I think you missed Nick's point altogether.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:11 pm

MrTattieHeid wrote:It's not "£25 for only 5 vouchers"--it's £25 to get in the door (or, if you like, £20 to get in and a quid each for five vouchers). Again, if your idea of value for money at this kind of event is measured in millilitres per pound, save yourself all the trouble and go hang out at the Pot Still.


Agreed - and the idea of variable pricing for the drams would just add to the feeling that you are measuring things on millilitres per pound. I was struck on speaking to one industry rep that she didn't like the concept of vouchers at all and would prefer to have a flat entry fee and then free dramming.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:58 pm

How naive can you get. Distillery reps are there because it's an excellent marketing opportunity, not out of the goodness of their hearts.
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Postby Matt2 » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:26 pm

Posted on behalf of Ikendal who asked these questions, they have been moved from the Whisky Live London 2007 topic to here...

so for those who can not remember the three questions for answering not discussing are

1. How did the whisky live committe come to this new arrangements (not necessarly vouchers but vouchers relating to age)

2. Why are the vouchers related to age of whisky and not alcoholic content if they are about policing our alcohol consumption
and finally

3. the vouchers will clearly make money will this money be used to reimbuirse the stall holders for their 'contributions' of aged whisky?
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Postby Matt2 » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:32 pm

Ikendal wrote:1. How did the whisky live committe come to this new arrangements (not necessarly vouchers but vouchers relating to age)

Extensive consultation with local councils, venues, exhibitors and the police.

Ikendal wrote:2. Why are the vouchers related to age of whisky and not alcoholic content if they are about policing our alcohol consumption

Comments from exhibitors suggesting some people just ask for the oldest, rarest, most expensive, becuase it is the most expensive, not because they really want to try it before buying a bottle.

Ikendal wrote:3. the vouchers will clearly make money will this money be used to reimbuirse the stall holders for their 'contributions' of aged whisky?

Don't know, but considering the cost of printing, distributing vouchers etc there really isn't a huge amount of money coming from this.

There is not a single answer regarding vouchers - they are not just to police the drunks, not just to stop the 'Gimme a 50 year old, don't care what it is' people, not just to make money. Complex subject.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:55 pm

This is a difficult issue to resolve. I fully understand the arguments and logistical problems the organisers have. However, as a paying customer,I feel a little hacked off because I have a genuine interest in and passion for all things whisk(e)y and feel that as an enthusiast I'm just being lumped in with all the 'Gimme a 50 year old, don't care what it is' people'. Reading the various threads on the subject, I don;t think I'm alone either.

Is it possible to meet halfway in future events? How about registered forum members who order online getting some sort of acknowledgement that their's is a genuine interest - e.g. tokens differentiated to allow one for each dram irrespective of age etc.?
Or
A "deluxe" ticket only available to registered forum members for a slightly higher cost but still with the original 15 tickets?

I'm not looking for something for nothing. Most of us who drink whisky are fortunate to be well able to pay our way. However, I don't think it unreasonable for the organisers and exhibitors to give a nod in the direction of those who are real whisky enthusiasts and recognise their passion.
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Postby Matt2 » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:53 pm

Interesting idea Crieftan about the forum members, or maybe some sort of special WL Vip member. Could charge you another £50 to join the VIP club :wink: :lol:

I doubt there are any of the 'gimme 50 yo' people here on the forum and certainly not suggesting any of you are.
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Postby Frodo » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:52 pm

Crieftan wrote:However, I don't think it unreasonable for the organisers and exhibitors to give a nod in the direction of those who are real whisky enthusiasts and recognise their passion.


Thus the bottle under the counter...
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Postby Deactivated Member » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:23 am

Matt Page wrote:Interesting idea Crieftan about the forum members, or maybe some sort of special WL Vip member. Could charge you another £50 to join the VIP club :wink: :lol:


:roll: :lol:
Mind you, most clubs charge subscriptions.
It really depends on what you get for your money. If members received preferential treatment at whisky events and additional offers - e.g. reduced rates at whisky schools, entry to distilleries that were not normally open to the public etc etc then a VIP club may get more interest than you'd initially think.
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Postby The Fachan » Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:34 pm

Crieftan,

Love the idea and would interested in what the magazine had to offer. The non-public distilleries might be a problem. It brings back also the idea od some time ago woth reagrd to a Whisky Magazine bottling.
This could have some mileage if done properly.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:12 pm

Frodo wrote:
Crieftan wrote:However, I don't think it unreasonable for the organisers and exhibitors to give a nod in the direction of those who are real whisky enthusiasts and recognise their passion.


Thus the bottle under the counter...

From what I have seen, the bottles under the counter are made available to people in the trade rather than to enthusiasts. They are often not terribly special anyway and cheaper to buy than a lot of the stuff that is on other counters. I have only ever got to taste from these bottles when people in the trade have passed me "vouchers". I would prefer to have all whiskies available to all visitors and hope that the admission fee comes some way to deterring the gimme the 50yo brigade - although actually I am one of the people who will ask for the 50yo in order to try (and appreciate) a whisky that would ordinarily be out of my price range for drinking whisky. I would keep the specials for masterclasses.
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Postby ikendal » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:40 pm

agree you there nick,

For me WL is about try the whiskies I would never get to try,I am not always after a 50 but a unique and special one. I remember boasting I had tried a special 40yr glenfiddich. Therefore the "please "gimmie" a 50yr old" principle is actually what I am there for. and please note the word please before the gimmie. you can always say no. If the stall holders are not prepared to give their customers a try, perhaps they should not bring them. (althoguh I think that has already been said here)

Also with regard to the questions.
Not wholly reassured with the answers

Matt Page wrote:
Ikendal wrote:1. How did the whisky live committe come to this new arrangements (not necessarly vouchers but vouchers relating to age)

Extensive consultation with local councils, venues, exhibitors and the police.

Ikendal wrote:2. Why are the vouchers related to age of whisky and not alcoholic content if they are about policing our alcohol consumption

Comments from exhibitors suggesting some people just ask for the oldest, rarest, most expensive, becuase it is the most expensive, not because they really want to try it before buying a bottle.

Ikendal wrote:3. the vouchers will clearly make money will this money be used to reimbuirse the stall holders for their 'contributions' of aged whisky?

Don't know, but considering the cost of printing, distributing vouchers etc there really isn't a huge amount of money coming from this.

There is not a single answer regarding vouchers - they are not just to police the drunks, not just to stop the 'Gimme a 50 year old, don't care what it is' people, not just to make money. Complex subject.


sorry can not work the quotes too complicate, however. with regard to
question 1
What about consultation with your customers? Are we not important! - surely the consultation happened the previous year, what changed to make the vouchers age related?

question 2
As I have said above, is that not one of the purposes of whisky live? I think that this reply has been taken from the forum and not the views of stall holders. (speculation only) I would like to hear the views of more stall holders.

question 3
Come on! The question money made is one that cannot be answered until you see the level of success of the event. However there should be a plan, ie 75% of the tickets will be reimbursed to the stall holders, or - the cost of tickets will be subtracted from the total and the rest distributed. or we will give the profit to that awkward sod on the forum (ikendal). either way I can only perceive the whole voucher system as a profit making system.

finally I tried a 18yr HP at WL last year and now always have a bottle on the go. that would have been two of my vouchers used up!

Finally, finally. Matt can you answer one query that I read here. What happens to those customers only wishing for the bottom of the glass to be lined? Will they have to forgo the precious voucher, or will it be at the digression of the stall holder.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:18 pm

Nick Brown wrote:I would prefer to have all whiskies available to all visitors and hope that the admission fee comes some way to deterring the gimme the 50yo brigade....


I would think on the contrary, many people, having paid a hefty fee to enter, want to get what they see as their money's worth.
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Postby Lawrence » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:07 am

I'll be in the UK for WL Glasgow in the fall of 2007 and was considering going to WL but after having read about the vouchers etc I think I'll give it a pass. I think I'll visit the Vaults instead.
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