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CASK STORAGE of Independent bottlers ????

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CASK STORAGE of Independent bottlers ????

Postby Durttbeag » Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:24 pm

Good day to all

I am new to this Whisky form but not new to Whisky
I have a two part question regarding Independent bottlers & the storage of there casks.

Do independent bottlers such as Gordon & MacPhail or Cadenhead etc, store and mature whisky from other distillers in there own warehouses?

If so, does this not affect the whisky since it is being matured in an environment other then that of the original distiller?

Thank you
Roger:)
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Postby Lawrence » Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:51 pm

Welcome to the forum. It is my understading that G&M has a long standing practice of buying new spirit and maturing it in their warehouse for the entire maturation period. Well you might think a whisky matured in Elgin as opposed to Islay might suffer it seems not to be the case. Remember huge amounts of Islay and other whiskies such as Oban are not matured on site but in large central warehouse complexes.
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Postby richard » Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:51 pm

yes roger gordonand mcphail do store some of there whisky at there own warehouse so do some distillers ie segram have about fifty warehouses at mulben from eight differenet distilleries so it doesnt sem to affect the whisky to much this is cheaper than storing whisky at there own distillery also easier for customs and excise

richard
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Postby hpulley » Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:43 pm

Some have their own warehouses (most do) while the smallest ones may leave it in the distillery's warehouses like other privately owned casks.

Does it affect it? Some say yes while others say no. Many distilleries do not store any or all their malt on location but send it to inland warehouses. The managers of most of those distilleries say it doesn't matter while those with wholly warehoused products on site say it does. You must decide for yourself :D

Harry
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Postby Admiral » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:29 pm

A bit of a side-track topic here from me, but I certainly believe the location of the warehouse affects the whisky.

Having explored coastal whiskies somewhat comprehensively in recent times, there is something that these whiskies have in common. To my mind, it must be "something in the air". Surely it's the seaside environment that contributes to these whiskies.

Pour yourself a dram of Lagavulin and tell me you can't taste the sea, the seaweed, the salt, the fish oil and tar/grease on the wharf? :wink:

Cheers,
Admiral
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Postby Aidan » Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:03 pm

Well they say the Bowmore storage is below sea level and this affects the whisky...

Many distillers mention the storage in "dark aromatic warehouses".

Also, there could be strains of bacteria living in specific warehouses, like the do in the caves they mature some cheeses in. This is just a wild guess, though.
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Postby Durttbeag » Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:19 pm

Thanks for answering my questions.
I now fully understand.

Cheers
Roger :D
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Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:55 am

Durttbeag wrote:Thanks for answering my questions.
I now fully understand.

Cheers
Roger :D


Excellent! Now explain it to us!
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Postby Durttbeag » Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:35 pm

Simply put, It would appear that where you store your oak casks
affects the scotch by adding the natural elements from the environment, sea salt, Bacteria, moist air, etc.. One forum member stated that even some Islay malts are stored inland, I would like to
find hard proof of this. One just has to compare any American Whisky to an Islay malt to taste the sea.

Based on all your responses, I have drawn the conclusion that an Ardbeg 10 from Ardbeg will contain stronger notes of seasalt, etc.. than a 10 year old Ardbeg bottled and aged from
"The Old Cask Malt" That may have been stored far inland in some warehouse.

Correct me if I am wrong.
Roger :D
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Postby Mr Fjeld » Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:52 pm

I don't know if storage have that much to say for the final result?
After all, there are (I've read) some Highland/Speyside whiskies (not thinking of Highland Park) that have a salty "island" character.
I'm more inclined to believe that the kilning process/peating play a larger part. Who knows, even the salty sea air that is also a crucial component to enable the burning of the peat might have something to do with it. It's hard to say - maybe that is what makes the magic even greater. I certainly want to reproduce the myth of my favourite whiskies!

Cheers!
Christian
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Postby Deactivated Member » Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:57 pm

I don't want to disturb things but G&M has quite some stock of Ardbeg 1975 and that has still matured on Islay and clearly stated G&M, unless I'm wrong and I saw their casks at the distillery for someone else their casks...
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Postby Lawrence » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:16 am

Huurman, that's a good bit of info, thank you.
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Postby hpulley » Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:21 am

I don't have any hard proof, just what I've read. Nearly all Caol Ila is aged off the island and more than half of Lagavulin is aged off the island. At present all Ardbeg is aged on Islay but in future, Ardbegs will stay on the island for the first ten years and then will be warehoused on the mainland. Some IB's casks remain on the island but others are in large warehouses in the highlands. Read Peat Smoke and Spirit and make up your own mind. Diageo, owner of Caol Ila and Lagavulin of course says it doesn't matter where it is aged while Bowmore, Bruichladdich (who also bottles on the island with islay water), Bunnahabhain and Laphroaig may say otherwise, that islay maturation is essential.

There is no sea salt in whisky barrels. No sodium chloride from other sources either. Just romantic notions and flowery marketing prose.

Harry
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Postby Deactivated Member » Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:42 am

hpulley wrote:Diageo, owner of Caol Ila and Lagavulin of course says it doesn't matter where it is aged while Bowmore, Bruichladdich (who also bottles on the island with islay water), Bunnahabhain and Laphroaig may say otherwise, that islay maturation is essential.

There is no sea salt in whisky barrels. No sodium chloride from other sources either. Just romantic notions and flowery marketing prose.

Harry


Harry, all distillers say that whatever it is they do is essential, and whatever it is they don't do is unimportant. See chillfiltering, caramel, storage, dilution, etc. You can take what they say with a grain of....

Speaking of which, to paraphrase Mr. Jackson, no one ever said there was salt in whisky; just a salty flavor. The most pronounced I've ever tasted was in the finish of Jura Superstition--like dumping a spoonful of salt on the back of your tongue. Whether this has anything to do with storage in proximity to the sea, I couldn't say. I very seriously doubt it. And yet, it is island and coastal malts that most often are described thus. Perhaps this is in part coincidence, perhaps in part the power of suggestion. Sometimes we taste what we look for.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:50 am

There are a lot of stories going around about maturation and only a few leading in the right direction. I know that the majority of malt whisky, used for the distillery bottles, has matured only in the distilleries own warehouses on site. The rest of the casks matured in these large compounds of warehouses spread all over Scotland will certainly being used for the blending industry.

my two pennies,

Erik
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Postby hpulley » Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:43 pm

With respect, Erik, I think you're wrong. Nearly all Lagavulin is sold as a single malt yet more than 50% is matured on the mainland. In this equation, your hypothesis that only the stuff for blenders goes to the mainland just doesn't fit. Even with Caol Ila, which is mostly blended, there is not enough storage on the island to hold that which goes to single malt (entirely because Lagavulin fills its warehouses and that of Port Ellen too).

Harry
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Postby Deactivated Member » Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:45 pm

Well it seems in the case Lagavulin and Caol Ila it does Harry. Except not all distilleries use huge warehouse spread allover the country, but some producers like for example Chivas/Pernod they have big warehouses too in Keith. But we are getting off toppic now and I'm a firm believer that quite a lot of casks from IB's will mature at the distillery, I won't say all of them. However it is true that the IB's have their own warehouses, some bigger then others. And some IB's use these warehouse only for production purposes, in other words all their casks get delivered there onsite prior to bottling. A good example is Duncan taylor, they have a small warehouse and productionsite to do their bottling.

Cheers,

Erik
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Postby Durttbeag » Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:02 pm

Wow,

I never thought my question would have received such a response,
Thanks! :D

After reading all your postings, I still strongly believe that wood does expand and contract with the changing weather where it is stored.
Just remember this, if over 60% (70%??) of whisky escapes from the cask while maturing, then I am sure it's surroundings are absorbed into the wood and also the liquid contained inside. These are not medical air tight compartments, they are wood and wood breathes.

It would be interesting to compare an Ardbeg malt matured for it's full live on Islay to the same matured in Speyside???....do you think it would taste and smell the same????? :?

Another point someone on the forum made was regarding all the points distillers make about what they do and don't do,
It just takes some common sense.

Caramel, Yes it makes it pretty to look at but who cares
If it does not change the taste only the color, then we should all stop talking about the color as it now is gone to the dogs.

If color is such an important part of enjoying the drink then LET IT BE!!
And stop adding color

Chill filtered,
I agree here that the taste is affected by chill filtering.
You want to keep as much flavor in there, unless you want a light
flavored drink, (Have a lowland)

All this color and filtering is due to moron drinkers who don't care or don't appreciate the quality but care if there Scotch gets cloudy with ice, water etc....OH BOO HOO HOO drink it NEAT:roll:
. And let me tell you if I love the smell and taste of a Scotch but the color happened to be too light, then DEAL WITH IT!!! Really, who say's "Man I just loved the smell, taste and great long finish..but man...that color was no good for me..NEXT DRAM! :roll:

Well I have had my fun here and I do appreciate all the input I received from both my questions. I was asked where I am from.
I was born and raised in New Brunswick Over here in Canada
I am very familiar with the sea, fish, and whisky. For those who do not know, New Brunswick is a Maritime province just next to Nova Scotia filled with logging Fishing and lots of Drink!!! They even have a whisky Distillery called GLENORA

Cheers
Roger :wink:
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Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:28 am

Roger, I assume you mean the Maritimes have a distillery, Glenora, since it is in Nova Scotia--Cape Breton Island, to be more precise. (And now that I reread your post, I see that is exactly what you meant.) Have you tasted any of their recent output?

Where in New Brunswick are you from? I have roots in Cape Tormentine--Baie Verte, actually. My ancestor was a Scot and a soldier in the British army who was apparently involved in the deportation of the Acadians. Whenever I meet an Acadian, I tell him about this and say I'm really sorry. My apology is sincere, but a bit tongue-in-cheek; they always laugh. They seem a happy and good-natured people, remarkable in view of their difficult history.

I also land in Fredericton several times a summer, where I enjoy a pint and a dram at the Lunar Rogue (whose manager assures me that I no longer need to bring my own glass).
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Postby islayjunkie » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:43 am

Interesting, I have an English ancestor who was a soldier in the the Union Army during the civil war. His descendants mingled with a pure bred Scot... my Grandmother, a Lindsay! I suppose she's to blame for my addiction to scotch ;)

On the other side of the coin my ancestry is Jewish... talk about a cultural juxtaposition. I've always favored the opinions of http://www.maltmadness.com/mm-rp.html :D
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Postby Durttbeag » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:17 pm

My apologies for my poorly written posts.

Yes I did mean Glenora in Nova Scotia
and No I have not tasted it in some time. (I am due to get some)
I no longer live in Moncton New Brunswick.
I am now a permanent Montreal resident.
I am as French as they come and totally bilingual (My mother tongue was French, but I now have a small accent when I do speak it.)

To Mr. Tattieheid,
:D
apologies accepted but not necessary.... hey' that was years ago when the whole world was doing horrible things. Folks need to let the past go but always remember to never repeat!!! :cry:

Just to freak out my relatives' I began re-enacting years ago as an English foot solider during the American Rev war, hee hee hee :lol: that was a blast. And yes you are right, we Maritimers are a fun bunch of folks who are happy and live life to the fullest.

(to be spoken in a fake Maritime accent) :lol:
Tru da teet and past da gums, look out stomach, her she comes


Cheers :D
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Postby hpulley » Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:54 pm

I haven't tried any of the 2003 bottled Glen Breton. The first run of stuff was pretty bad (smelled kind of the like the water left over after you boil frankfurters). The next runs were better but still not great and not worth the price charged. That price has prevented me from trying the 2003. Speaking of maturation locations and other factors going into the taste of whisky, Glenora uses Scottish barley malt as they found Canadian barley produced a worse product than Scottish barley. What makes it different from the scotches produced from the same barley are the location, its water and the stills of course.

Talking about forced relocations, many Scots ended up in Canada. I take it more Irishmen went to the USA instead for some reason.

Harry
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Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:56 pm

Well, of course, Harry, many Irish went to Canada, and Scots to the US, as well, but it does seem more the other way around. The Scots built Canada. It has always seemed to me that when the time came to emigrate, the Scots, for whatever reason, wanted to stay in the Empire, and the Irish couldn't wait to get out.

Some good novels I've read that deal in part with Scots and Irish experience in Canada are No Great Mischief by Alistair MacLeod; The Oatmeal Ark by Rory MacLean; and Away by Jane Urquhart.

I agree the Glen Breton folks want too much for their product, and that is the main reason I haven't bought any. Smarten up, guys! You have no reputation yet. The barley thing is interesting. The early samples I had, clearly too young, tasted like jet fuel. Of course, this distillery's history reflects the difficulties involved on getting this kind of venture up and running--I believe it has changed hands at least twice. It's tempting for a young distillery in tight circumstances to release product prematurely in order to generate some cash, but it doesn't do the reputation any good. Add to that a high price per bottle...well, I'd very much like to hear a good report on recent bottlings, and I certainly wish the Glenora folks the best of luck. Everybody buy a bottle! At the very least, it may someday be collectible.

If terroir is a real phenomenon in distilling, what effect can we expect from maturing whisky in a warehouse in a forest? There aren't a lot of trees in the motherland.

Speaking of barley, I wonder sometimes if there's a genetic predisposition to the love of barley. Even as a wee bairn, my favorite soup was Campbell's Beef with Barley & Vegetables. Still love it.

Durttbeag, let's meet at L'Île Noire, or the pub of your choice, for a dram--I'll be in town March 17-19.

What the hell was the topic again?
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Postby Durttbeag » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:49 pm

Mr Tattieheid

I will keep you posted

Cheers
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