Historical questions about cask maturing?

[Mickeman]

I have over 10 books about malt whisky but none of them states the answers to the following questions.


1. Which year did the law pass in the US that states that casks can only be used once for making bourbon?

2. When did the Scotch whisky industry start to use American ex bourbon casks on a larger scale?

3. What type of casks was mainly used prior to this?

4. When did sherry become popular in the UK and when did the whisky industry start to mature whisky in ex sherry casks?


Would appreciate very much if anyone can answer these questions for me.

[Admiral]

With regards to Questions 2 & 3:

It is my understanding that, prior to Prohibition, rye whisky was the most popular style of whisky made in the US. When prohibition was repealed, for some reason rye was not as popular, (perhaps the average palate had mellowed in the intervening years?) and bourbon suddenly took off.

Hence, it would be my guestimate that widespread use of ex-bourbon casks in the scotch industry came about after prohibition came to an end.

Prior to that, it's my understanding that much of the scotch was being matured in what we might now call "plain oak", but were most probably ex-sherry casks at an earlier point in their history.

Cheers,
Admiral

[Mickeman]

Is there any special reason that barrels that have previously held rye whiskey couldn't be used for maturing Scotch whisky?

[Deactivated Member]

Good question! It doesn't seem to be done, does it? I'd bet it's because the resulting flavor would be unpleasant--the rye would overpower the malt. Rye drinkers' opinions, please.

[kallaskander]

Hi there,

I think that the US American taste was "watered down" in a true sense during the "Noble Experiment". Speak Easies, cocktails and the greed of smugglers did nothing toward a preference of strong tasting strong flavoured drinks. That is why the Canadian neighbours and Scottish blenders were so successful after the end of prohibition. Blends like the "Cutty Sark", mellow, light and fresh were exactly right for a generation used to diluted drinks. I have not much experience with rye whiskies but I think they stood no chance against Canadian and Scotch after the end of prohibition. (In some counties prohibition is still effective. Ironically in Lynchburg, Tennessee, among others less known - where they make Jack Daniels!).

Greetings
kallaskander

[Mickeman]

I have also read somewhere that the Spanish sherry had to be bottled in Spain after a while.

I dont know if this is a Spanich law or a industry standard and when it came to be.

[Admiral]

Is there any special reason that barrels that have previously held rye whiskey couldn't be used for maturing Scotch whisky?

I assume that, since rye makers aren't obliged to use virgin casks, rye barrels can be re-used in the American whiskey industry, and so there isn't the same "demand" to off-load them over to Scotland.

Cheers,
Admiral

[Ed]

Hello Admiral,
Straight rye whiskey must be aged in a new charred barrel just like bourbon. Of the straight whiskies only corn doesn't use a new barrel which must be aged in used cooperage or uncharred oak if aged at all.

Does anyone know if the scotch industy prefers ex-bourbon barrels that have contained bourbon for a long or short time? The law requires that bourbon be aged for at least two years. Most is aged four years, I believe. Some is aged eight or more years. Which makes the best scotch?
Ed

[Deactivated Member]

I expect they take them all, Ed--but you've raised the possibility of a whole other level of information on labels. "Finest Scotch Whisky, aged for twelve years in barrels that previously held bourbon for four years, three of them cooler and wetter than normal, near the top of a rack in a brick warehouse on a valley floor in northern southeast Kentucky...."

[Admiral]

Finest Scotch Whisky, aged for twelve years in barrels that previously held bourbon for four years, three of them cooler and wetter than normal, near the top of a rack in a brick warehouse on a valley floor in northern southeast Kentucky...

I think I tried that whisky once. I preferred it to the one that had been stored at the bottom of the rack.

Seriously though, as Mr T is indeed alluding to, I don't believe the Scots themselves get overly fussed about the finer details of a cask's bourbon history, so I guess we shouldn't either.

Although some distilleries will in fact know precisely what goes on. Take, for example, Glenmorangie, which has a specific exchange deal going on with {one of the American distilleries.....can't remember which one.....Jack Daniels?}.

Cheers,
Admiral

[Deactivated Member]

As I recall, Glenmorangie own the forest in the Ozarks whence the barrels are produced--thus they are essentially loaned to whichever distillery it is. (Can't be JD--that's Tennessee whiskey, not bourbon! Come to think of it, I've never heard of Scotch matured in Tennessee whiskey barrels--you don't suppose those fussbudgets simply don't bother to make the distinction, do you?)

[kallaskander]

Hi there,

Glenmorangie is the distillery which invented the "wood management". Wood management means a kind of scientific aproach to everything connected with the barrels for the Glenmorangie. Part of this mangement was the aquisition of a wood where Missouri Oaks grow. From these trees Bourbon barrels are made and after conditioning with the Bourbon they are sent to Scotland. There was an exchange of Glenmorangie with Maker´s Mark to find out how the malt and the Bourbon mature in different conditions. Could well be that the Bourbon barrels used for Glenmorangie come from there.

The end of the wider usage of sherry barrels was brought abaout by the bureaucracy of the European Union. They decided that the export of Sherry, Port, Madeira, Malaga, Masala etc. was no longer allowed by the barrel. Reason for that was to protect customers from fraud and manipulation. But it ended the era of reasonably cheap sherry barrels in Great Britain effectively.
It is said that this rule could be applied to the export of Scotch single malts as well someday. Meaning no more independent bottlings outside of Scotland.


Greetings
kallaskander

[Mickeman]

I assume that, since rye makers aren't obliged to use virgin casks, rye barrels can be re-used in the American whiskey industry, and so there isn't the same "demand" to off-load them over to Scotland.

Are they not?

I know the law concerning re-use of barrels in the US was changed 1997 to only apply to defined types of whiskey. Undefined types of whiskey could from 1997 re-use barrels.
In my opinion both Bourbon and rye are defined types of whiskey.

[Mickeman]

As I recall, Glenmorangie own the forest in the Ozarks whence the barrels are produced--thus they are essentially loaned to whichever distillery it is. (Can't be JD--that's Tennessee whiskey, not bourbon! Come to think of it, I've never heard of Scotch matured in Tennessee whiskey barrels--you don't suppose those fussbudgets simply don't bother to make the distinction, do you?)

Acually the whisky industry don't do any distinction between bourbon and Tennessee whiskey.

I know that both Laphroaig and Ardbeg mainly use barrels from Jack Daniels which is a Tennessee sour mash.

[Mickeman]

Hi there,

Glenmorangie is the distillery which invented the "wood management". Wood management means a kind of scientific aproach to everything connected with the barrels for the Glenmorangie. Part of this mangement was the aquisition of a wood where Missouri Oaks grow. From these trees Bourbon barrels are made and after conditioning with the Bourbon they are sent to Scotland. There was an exchange of Glenmorangie with Maker´s Mark to find out how the malt and the Bourbon mature in different conditions. Could well be that the Bourbon barrels used for Glenmorangie come from there.

The end of the wider usage of sherry barrels was brought abaout by the bureaucracy of the European Union. They decided that the export of Sherry, Port, Madeira, Malaga, Masala etc. was no longer allowed by the barrel. Reason for that was to protect customers from fraud and manipulation. But it ended the era of reasonably cheap sherry barrels in Great Britain effectively.
It is said that this rule could be applied to the export of Scotch single malts as well someday. Meaning no more independent bottlings outside of Scotland.


Greetings
kallaskander

Do you know which year the EU regulation concerning export of barrels was introduced?

[Ed]

Hello All,

There was an exchange of Glenmorangie with Maker´s Mark to find out how the malt and the Bourbon mature in different conditions. Could well be that the Bourbon barrels used for Glenmorangie come from there.

That is right, Maker's Mark. I have heard that Glenmorangie did have a deal with Heaven Hill but lost a lot of their barrels in the big fire they had in 1996. Maker's Mark is a good choice. The bourbon is aged about six years there and the barrels are rotated so the barrels should be more be consistent than they would be if each barrel spent its whole bourbon "life" in different warehouses. Also, the time aging used at Maker's Mark would leave an appropriate amount of the oak's character, in my opinion.

Ed

[corbuso]

1. Which year did the law pass in the US that states that casks can only be used once for making bourbon?

>No Idea

2. When did the Scotch whisky industry start to use American ex bourbon casks on a larger scale?

The scotch whisky has always been interested in saving money and bought american casks because they were cheap (linked to question 1)

3. What type of casks was mainly used prior to this?
- Sherry and before uncharred scottish oak cask (most of the distillery had their cooperage) or the whisky was simply stored in steel containers..

4. When did sherry become popular in the UK and when did the whisky industry start to mature whisky in ex sherry casks?
- Sherry became "fashion" in the end of the 90s but sherry has always been used.
Before the sherry production was very high, thus leading to cheap sherry cask prices. Whisky industry only started to be really investigate the wood effect only some decades ago (Glenmorangie was the pionneer)

Regards

Corbuso

[Admiral]

(Can't be JD--that's Tennessee whiskey, not bourbon! Come to think of it, I've never heard of Scotch matured in Tennessee whiskey barrels

As our American friends have pointed out on numerous occasions (yourself included, Mr T, if memory serves), the production of Tennessee Whisk(e)y is identical to bourbon at every stage, up until the application of the Lincoln County Process. Hence, I don't think the Scots would be too fussed about whether their casks came from Jack Daniels, as opposed to Jim Beam.

(Put it this way.....Jack Daniels and Dickel use virgin oak just like their bourbon colleagues, and I'm sure they don't just let their used casks get stockpiled or turned into woodchips. You can guarantee that they're offsetting their costs by selling casks back to the Scots, just like the bourbon distillers).

******************

1. Which year did the law pass in the US that states that casks can only be used once for making bourbon?

>No Idea

2. When did the Scotch whisky industry start to use American ex bourbon casks on a larger scale?

The scotch whisky has always been interested in saving money and bought american casks because they were cheap (linked to question 1)

3. What type of casks was mainly used prior to this?
- Sherry and before uncharred scottish oak cask (most of the distillery had their cooperage) or the whisky was simply stored in steel containers..

4. When did sherry become popular in the UK and when did the whisky industry start to mature whisky in ex sherry casks?
- Sherry became "fashion" in the end of the 90s but sherry has always been used.
Before the sherry production was very high, thus leading to cheap sherry cask prices. Whisky industry only started to be really investigate the wood effect only some decades ago (Glenmorangie was the pionneer)

Um.....is this for real? I hate to be contrary or disagreeable, Corbuso, but most of what you've said there is questionable at best, and could more aptly described as crap.

I might stand to be corrected, but I don't think I've ever heard or read anywhere that whisky was stored in steel containers. Put it this way: It has never been matured in steel containers! Strike one. When you say sherry became "fashion" at the end of the 90's, do you mean the 1990's or the 1890's ????? A more common historical theme is that sherry butts were shipped to England and yet rarely shipped back to Spain. There was a surplus of casks left at the docks, and the Scots were kind enough to take them off the Englishmen's hands. Strike two. Glenmorangie are commonly heralded as the "pioneer" of wood finishing - I'm not sure they were responsible for initiating and instigating "wood science" as we know it today. Glenmorangie's Bill Lumsden is rightly lauded for his research and work with wood maturation, but he wasn't at the coal face "decades" ago. And besides, whilst Glenmorangie seem to be credited with "pioneering" wood finishing, that's actually crap anyway. Balvenie was the first to try finishing.....they just didn't make a bit deal about it. Strike three.

Cheers,
Admiral

[Mickeman]

Have actually found answers to most my questions.
Mainly thanks to Mr. Ulf Buxrud who answered most of my questions.

Have in regard that there may be errors in the following text and there certainly are errors in spelling since I am Swedish and have compiled and rewritten most of the information.

Very thankfull for comments of the content and language of the below text.

*************************************************

In the early days of whisky making wooden casks were used only as containers. The whisky was generally not long enough in the casks to mature. Wooden casks were in those days used as containers for a lot of different things. Wet coopers made barrels for containing liquids like beers, wines, cider, tar and molasses. Dry coopers made those for flour, grains, fish, fruit, vegetables and almost anything that could be stored in a barrel. Some casks may have been produced directly to contain whisky but since the majority of distilling were illicit there is obviously hard to find records of this. The casks were of variable size and shape. The wood used was mainly European oak, but wood from cherry-trees, chestnut-trees and pine-wood were also used. The whisky makers used any casks they could get their hands on. Some of these casks and wood types were used to mature whisky as late as in the late 40-ties. It was only in 1988 that it became a law that Scotch whisky has to be matured in oak casks.

Sherry became popular in Great Britain in the eighteen century. Since it was uneconomical to return the casks to Spain these were sold for a very low price and the whisky makers were not slow to use them as containers for whisky. It soon became apparent that whisky that was contained in an ex sherry cask tasted better than whisky from a cask that have previously contained herring or other stuff that gave a “negative” influence on the whisky.

There soon became suspicions that the storage of whisky in wooden casks may influence the whisky in a positive way, but it wasn’t until the second part of the nineteen century, with the birth of the blending industry, that maturing was used more systematically by whisky makers. In the beginning it was mainly sherry casks that have previously held sweet oloroso sherry that were used since this was the most popular type of sherry in Great Britain at the time.

In the year of 1900 a new law was established in the US, because of lobbying by the American coopers, which forbid the re-use of barrels for storing whiskey. This made the American oak barrels made by American white oak (Quercus Alba) very cheap and the Scotch whisky industry started to import and use ex bourbon barrels on a larger scale in the nineteen twenties. In the thirties ex bourbon barrels became the dominant type of casks for maturing whisky in Scotland and are so to this day.

During the twentieth century it became more common to use other types of sherry butts than olorosso like amontillado and fino casks. These butts are manly made from American white oak as opposite to olorosso butts that are manly made from Spanish oak (Quercus falcata). In the same time the price of sherry butts have risen to over ten times that of an ex bourbon barrel. This is partly because EU regulations have made it forbidden to export sherry in barrels but mostly because of increase in original prices (Its very labour consuming to make a cask of European oak) and increasing demand from the market.

The US law that forbade re-use of barrels for storing/maturing whiskey was changed in 1997 to exclude undefined whiskey which led to a 20-30 $ rise in the general price of a American barrel. Many of the distilleries in Scotland have contracts with a specific maker of American whisky so this will not change the supply of ex bourbon barrels to the Scotch whisky industry.

Of the whisky stored in Scotland today about 88 % is maturing in ex bourbon casks and 10 % in cherry casks. About 750 000 casks are filled each year which of 30 000 is ex sherry and roughly 17 million casks are maturing in Scotland today.

************************************************

Very thankfull for comments of the content and language of the above text.

[Mr Fjeld]

Nice article you found Mickeman! I believe Ulf Buxrud is something of a legend in the whisky society - at least his famous Macallan tasting. Apart from that I was very surprised to see that the sherry producers outside Jerez use american oak and not european. Is this really correct? Can someone confirm?

Skål!
Christian

[Ed]

the sherry producers outside Jerez use american oak and not european

That is what it says in Appreciating Whisky by Phillip Hills

[Ed]

The US law that forbade re-use of barrels for storing/maturing whiskey was changed in 1997 to exclude undefined whiskey which led to a 20-30 $ rise in the general price of a American barrel.

This sounds questionable to me, though I don't know a reference that I can point to. Straight bourbon, rye and wheat whiskies have long required a new charred barrel. Other whiskies, including straight corn have other laws regarding aging. I doubt that this is a recent change in the law. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. If I find out for sure, either way, I will post something here.
Ed

[Ed]

1. Which year did the law pass in the US that states that casks can only be used once for making bourbon?

I am not sure of the answer to this question as stated. I believe I can shed some light on it though.

Doctor James C. Crow is credited with being the first distiller to sell only aged bourbon. The earliest written reference to such bourbon is 1849. Since it is described as red we can be sure that it was aged in new charred barrels. The first bourbon to be sold exclusively in bottles was Old Forester beginning in 1870. The Bottled in Bond Act which made the US government the guarantor of a whiskey's authenticity is dated 1897. I don't know the wording of the original Bottled in Bond Act but now it requires that a whiskey be stored for four years, bottled at 50% abv and come from a single distilling season.
Ed

[Deactivated Member]

Well done, Mickeman. Mr Picky says "were" not "where", but your translation is clear throughout, and the article is very interesting and informative.

"Sherry producers outside Jerez use American oak and not European"--this is ambiguous to me. Are we talking about Spanish sherry producers outside Jerez, or does "outside Jerez" mean "outside Spain"?

Admiral, my idle speculation about JD barrels is not about whether they are used--I'm sure they are. I was just thinking (and not at all seriously) that if there were some some prig in the US equivalent to some of the folks at the SWA, he might object to Scotch whisky being sold in the US as having been matured in ex-bourbon barrels, if they'd actually been in JD barrels. Confusing to the consumer, you understand. But there is the merest shadow of an issue--if the Scotch people are so picky about what is and isn't Scotch, oughtn't they respect the bourbon folks' definitions, also? I repeat, I've never seen a Scotch matured in "ex-Tennessee whiskey barrels". If anyone knows who might be using JD barrels, I'd be curious to know.

And hey, what's with the baseball talk?

[Mickeman]

I repeat, I've never seen a Scotch matured in "ex-Tennessee whiskey barrels". If anyone knows who might be using JD barrels, I'd be curious to know.

Thanks for the praise.

You have evidently not read all previous contributions in this thread. Note my comment on above subject on the previous page.

[Mickeman]

The US law that forbade re-use of barrels for storing/maturing whiskey was changed in 1997 to exclude undefined whiskey which led to a 20-30 $ rise in the general price of a American barrel.

This sounds questionable to me, though I don't know a reference that I can point to. Straight bourbon, rye and wheat whiskies have long required a new charred barrel. Other whiskies, including straight corn have other laws regarding aging. I doubt that this is a recent change in the law. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. If I find out for sure, either way, I will post something here.
Ed

It says "exclude undefined whiskey" that mean that the whiskies you mention is still effected by the law against re-using barrels.
That is if i'ts defined on the label whats in the bottle.
But if you dont state on the label thats it contains a certain type of whiskey then the whiskey may have been matured in re-used barrels.

[Deactivated Member]

I repeat, I've never seen a Scotch matured in "ex-Tennessee whiskey barrels". If anyone knows who might be using JD barrels, I'd be curious to know.

Thanks for the praise.

You have evidently not read all previous contributions in this thread. Note my comment on above subject on the previous page.

Chalk it up to the sieve that passes for my memory. Thanks for the reference; you answered my question before I asked it.

[Admiral]

And hey, what's with the baseball talk?

Well, we just lost the Ashes.....talking about cricket is a bit depressing at the moment.

Cheers,
Admiral

[Ed]

Hello Mickeman,
Sorry if I wasn't clear. What seems questionable is that this changed in 1997. I believe that undefined whiskey could be aged in used cooperage before that date. I am sure that you are right and some regulatory change was made in 1997, but I am not quite sure what that change was.

Perhaps the change relates to Early Times Kentucky Whiskey which is not a bourbon. I have one book, pre-1997, that says it wasn't a bourbon but that it was a straight whiskey. It no longer is called a straight whiskey. I am only speculating here, I don't know.
Ed

[Admiral]

Perhaps the change relates to Early Times Kentucky Whiskey which is not a bourbon

My understanding is that Early Times switched from being a bourbon to a "Kentucky Whiskey" simply because the distillery wanted to save some money by re-using casks. Which sounds fair enough to me!

Cheers,
Admiral

[Elliot]

I have over 10 books about malt whisky but none of them states the answers to the following questions.


1. Which year did the law pass in the US that states that casks can only be used once for making bourbon?

US law regarding bourbon was codified in 1964.

[corbuso]

(Can't be JD--that's Tennessee whiskey, not bourbon! Come to think of it, I've never heard of Scotch matured in Tennessee whiskey barrels

As our American friends have pointed out on numerous occasions (yourself included, Mr T, if memory serves), the production of Tennessee Whisk(e)y is identical to bourbon at every stage, up until the application of the Lincoln County Process. Hence, I don't think the Scots would be too fussed about whether their casks came from Jack Daniels, as opposed to Jim Beam.

(Put it this way.....Jack Daniels and Dickel use virgin oak just like their bourbon colleagues, and I'm sure they don't just let their used casks get stockpiled or turned into woodchips. You can guarantee that they're offsetting their costs by selling casks back to the Scots, just like the bourbon distillers).

******************

1. Which year did the law pass in the US that states that casks can only be used once for making bourbon?

>No Idea

2. When did the Scotch whisky industry start to use American ex bourbon casks on a larger scale?

The scotch whisky has always been interested in saving money and bought american casks because they were cheap (linked to question 1)

3. What type of casks was mainly used prior to this?
- Sherry and before uncharred scottish oak cask (most of the distillery had their cooperage) or the whisky was simply stored in steel containers..

4. When did sherry become popular in the UK and when did the whisky industry start to mature whisky in ex sherry casks?
- Sherry became "fashion" in the end of the 90s but sherry has always been used.
Before the sherry production was very high, thus leading to cheap sherry cask prices. Whisky industry only started to be really investigate the wood effect only some decades ago (Glenmorangie was the pionneer)

Um.....is this for real? I hate to be contrary or disagreeable, Corbuso, but most of what you've said there is questionable at best, and could more aptly described as crap.

I might stand to be corrected, but I don't think I've ever heard or read anywhere that whisky was stored in steel containers. Put it this way: It has never been matured in steel containers! Strike one. When you say sherry became "fashion" at the end of the 90's, do you mean the 1990's or the 1890's ????? A more common historical theme is that sherry butts were shipped to England and yet rarely shipped back to Spain. There was a surplus of casks left at the docks, and the Scots were kind enough to take them off the Englishmen's hands. Strike two. Glenmorangie are commonly heralded as the "pioneer" of wood finishing - I'm not sure they were responsible for initiating and instigating "wood science" as we know it today. Glenmorangie's Bill Lumsden is rightly lauded for his research and work with wood maturation, but he wasn't at the coal face "decades" ago. And besides, whilst Glenmorangie seem to be credited with "pioneering" wood finishing, that's actually crap anyway. Balvenie was the first to try finishing.....they just didn't make a bit deal about it. Strike three.

Cheers,
Admiral

Hi Admiral,
Before the overstock of whisky in the 1910-20', most of the whisky was not matured and sold as new make to blender or distributors, who stored whisky in different recipients, including steel tanks. With the new restrictions for scotch in 1915, no reference are done concerning the storage and there has been a problem. Also there is a clear documentation of a blender who stored almost all its whisky in steel tanks and lead to rupture of the deal with the Bronfman's brothers (1930').
Also during that period, Campbeltown was also known to ship whisky in all king of containers, including casks who previously stored fishes (e.g., harengs).

Regarding Balvenie, they might been the first to have a double mature whisky, with their doublewood and the wood finish.
However, to the best of my knowledge, Glenmorangie were the first who investigated the effect of wood and cask types on the maturation and organoleptic composition of the whisky, from a scientific approach.

[Mr Fjeld]

Interesting reading Corbuso. It looks like you are refering to a specific period (1910-1920/prohibition period) or the exception rather than the rule. However, it would be nice to present a few references so it can be followed up by others.

Skål!
Christian

[Mickeman]

Hello Mickeman,
Sorry if I wasn't clear. What seems questionable is that this changed in 1997. I believe that undefined whiskey could be aged in used cooperage before that date. I am sure that you are right and some regulatory change was made in 1997, but I am not quite sure what that change was.

Perhaps the change relates to Early Times Kentucky Whiskey which is not a bourbon. I have one book, pre-1997, that says it wasn't a bourbon but that it was a straight whiskey. It no longer is called a straight whiskey. I am only speculating here, I don't know.
Ed

You are free to look for the exact laws at: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/27cfrv1_03.html Please post your findings.

[Mickeman]

US law regarding bourbon was codified in 1964.

Some law concerning Bourbon might have been codified in 1964.

But the law about not allowing re-use of casks in general whiskey making must have been earlier since the major type of casks maturing whisky in scottland was ex bourbon barrels already in the thirties.

Please look at the answers I have fount to my own questions in a previous post before you post any comments.