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Triple Distillation differences

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Triple Distillation differences

Postby Aidan » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:07 am

I've tried a good few Auchentoshans and a few Rosebanks. I have to say that they're not that similar to Bushmills at all. I also tried Auchentoshans and Bushmills in a blind tasting and it was pretty obvious which was Irish. I wonder what the difference in the production is...


I also think that Cooley's double distilled whiskey is quite recognisable from double distilled scotch.
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Postby kallaskander » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:23 am

Hi there,

usually in Ireland they use bigger stills. And of course with the exception of Connemara they do not peat.
Behind Irish whiskey there is quite another philosophy. Bushmills does make a single malt but an Irish single malt. "And that made all the difference". Probably.

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Postby Aidan » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:28 am

Hi Kallaskander

I know they don't peat in Bushmills, but neither do Auchentoshan or Rosebank. I suppose it could be down to the size of the stills, alright.
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Postby kallaskander » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:54 am

Hi there,

http://www.whiskymag.com/whisky/brand/r ... y2302.html

http://www.cadenheads.de/catalog/produc ... ebe607915f

Auchentoshan

Complex reek with a silken nap; cool but full on the front and sides of
the tongue; first reply holds great promise; very well defined with
suggestions of peat and malt; slow fade; multi-dimensional imaging of
various earthscapes.
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/jhb/whisky ... _1294.html



Auchentoshan 10years Lowland Single Malt

This is one of the rare, triple-distilled single malts--Benrinnes, Springbank and Rosebank being the only others. Auchentoshan is a very light-bodied malt, but it retains great character and complexity. It is an excellent malt to introduce the novice to the world of single malts. The great bulk of Auchentoshan goes into the blends. An interesting aspect concerning this distillery is that, even though it is classified as a Lowland distillery due to the physical location of the plant, it gets its water from the Highlands' Kilpatrick Hills located just north of the Highlands boundary line.

Proof 80 - Color : Pale gold. - Nose : Gentle. Fresh and clean. Flowery, with very little peat. Some oiliness. - Body : Smooth and soft. Some oil. - Palate : Some sweetness, but not overly so. Ever so little peatiness. Light oiliness. Some fruit. - Finish : Not so long, but very pleasant and even.
http://www.wineglobe.com/10176.html

Usually you are right, but there is nothing really all too certain in the world of whisky.

Greetings
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Postby Aidan » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:23 am

kallaskander wrote:Usually you are right, but there is nothing really all too certain in the world of whisky.

Greetings
kallaskander


There's one thing certain - If you drink too much of it, it makes you feel funny.

That Cadenhead looks like quite a good deal, by the way...
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Postby corbuso » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:56 am

And don't forget that there is a difference in production between Scottish and Irish whiskies.
In Scotland, they use only malted barley, whereas in Ireland malted and unmalted barley is used (and maybe differences in the cut).

Corbuso

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Postby hpulley » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:08 am

It's true that most or all Irish blends include some pot still whisky which uses unmalted barley but there are Irish Single malts too and still they are usually quite obviously different from a lowland scotch single malt. Type of malt used, washbacks, stills, condensors, casks, etc. all combine to make something different.

Lowland scotch whiskies tend to be lighter in many ways and I must say I don't get lemon or grassy notes from many irish whiskies so there really is no mixing those up, IMO. You might mix up an Irish single with a speyside or highland scotch though.

Harry
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Postby kallaskander » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:11 am

Hi there,

sez u, Aidun! :lol:

Greetings
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Postby Aidan » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:08 pm

kallaskander wrote:Hi there,

sez u, Aidun! :lol:

Greetings
kallaskander


Shez me. Although it's too early in the day for me just yet.


Harry

Yes, that's all correct, in my opinion. Any as you say, Bushmills don 't use any unmlated barley.

I think I've said it before, but I'd love if Bushmills did make a traditional pure pot still to see what it's like. Now that they're in competition with Irish Distillers etc...
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Postby Alec » Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:53 pm

One can only dream! Bushmills new website is up and running, don't know how it managed to take so long!! Just bought a couple of bottles of the 12 Year Old, which is cool, as I thought they would only sell at the distillery. Bushmills is definitely my fav distillery :)
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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:47 pm

Strangely I actually think there is not much difference between the potstill sizes at Bushmills as opposed to Auchentoshan. Bushmills have rather small potstills compared to Midleton and other previous distilleries. So I doublt it is the potstill sze that affects the style and taste.

It may be down to the cut etc and casking. Also eventhough Auchentoshan may actually be closer to Bushmills than Midleton I reckon that the climate in ireland as a whole is much less harsh than scotland. We in Ireland very rarely get snow for instance. So I reckon that maturing in Ireland is also very different to scotland as the casks are subjected to less fluctuations in weather than scotland. just an idea really and I agree that Bushmills is very different to Auchentoshan and even Jameson.
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Re: Triple Distillation differences

Postby Frodo » Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:05 pm

Aidan wrote:I also tried Auchentoshans and Bushmills in a blind tasting and it was pretty obvious which was Irish...

I also think that Cooley's double distilled whiskey is quite recognisable from double distilled scotch.


Hi Aidan:

I guess I have a different palate than you.

1) I tried Auchantoshan and Bushmills 10 HTH and found that apart from the aftertaste, they were quite similar to me.

2) I could easilly see mixing up Lockes or Magilligan whiskies (both Cooley) with scotch.

Perhaps I should drink more Irish!
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Postby Aidan » Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:28 pm

I find a big difference, although it would obviously depend on which ones you tasted. I had the Auchentoshan 12 made for the Cunard and the Bushmills 10, which is really growing on my actually.

It was during a tasting competition.
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Postby Alec » Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:37 pm

A 12 is one I really want to try. I think the Bushmills 10 and 12 have improved immeasurably in the last couple of years, particularly the 10. I don't see a great deal of similarity between Bushmills and Auchentoshan 10. I think there is a touch of the pot still about Auchentoshan...
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Postby Aidan » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:06 pm

Alec wrote:A 12 is one I really want to try. I think the Bushmills 10 and 12 have improved immeasurably in the last couple of years, particularly the 10. I don't see a great deal of similarity between Bushmills and Auchentoshan 10. I think there is a touch of the pot still about Auchentoshan...


I had the Bushmills 12 Distillery Reserve about 6 or 7 months ago and loved it. I think it is a good bit ahead of the 10 year old. I'll have to get a bottle.

I'm drinking the Bushmills Carribean Rum married cask at the moment. It's very interesting, but not my favorate whiskey by any means.
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Re: Triple Distillation differences

Postby Bullie » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:17 am

Aidan wrote:I've tried a good few Auchentoshans and a few Rosebanks. I have to say that they're not that similar to Bushmills at all. I also tried Auchentoshans and Bushmills in a blind tasting and it was pretty obvious which was Irish. I wonder what the difference in the production is...


First a note on Rosebank: It's not triple distilled, just two and a quarter.

The biggest difference between Irish and Scotch is that Irish whiskey use both malted and unmalted barley (ratio 40/60) in their production, compared to 100% malted barley in scotch pot-still.
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Re: Triple Distillation differences

Postby Aidan » Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:28 pm

Bullie wrote:
Aidan wrote:I've tried a good few Auchentoshans and a few Rosebanks. I have to say that they're not that similar to Bushmills at all. I also tried Auchentoshans and Bushmills in a blind tasting and it was pretty obvious which was Irish. I wonder what the difference in the production is...


First a note on Rosebank: It's not triple distilled, just two and a quarter.

The biggest difference between Irish and Scotch is that Irish whiskey use both malted and unmalted barley (ratio 40/60) in their production, compared to 100% malted barley in scotch pot-still.


Hi Bulie

That's true for pure pot still (only made by Irish Distillers), but not for single malt Irish whiskey. Bushmills doesn't produce any whiskey this way, though, nor does Cooley. They both produce single malt using only malted barley. Cooley also does a grain whiskey for blending and Greenore.

Also, the ration of malted to unmalted barley depends on the brand Irish Distillers are making. It wouldn't necessarily be 40/60, but it is for Powers.

The only thing that distinguishes Irish whiskey from scotch legally is the fact that one is distilled and matured in Ireland and the other in Scotland.

I've always read that Rosebank triple distilled, but I could be wrong of course. Most of the references to it say it did, but maybe it only used a portion of the triple distilled spirit in its product a la Springbank.
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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:11 pm

I'm confused how can something be distilled 2.25 times... Oh well :?

Anyway back to Bullies scurllious comment :wink: (just joking). And Aidan is spot on.....

That is too broad a comment to make in regards Irish whiskey and totally incorrect. What you are refering to there is pure pot still and there is no magic ratio but I can understand the confusion.

Some comparisons on this forum were referring to Scotch and Irish malts. Why is Irish malt so different even from lowland tripple distilled malt? , was one of the questions posed. There are many Irish malts therefore saying that they use unmalted barley and that's why Irish is different does not hold sway(malt is malt). Also cooley produce a lot of double distilled malt but it is still retains a real irish feel even some of the peated versions although some have been likened to Scotch as well. So the conumdrum is why Irsih is so different, it is not usage of ingredients and it is also not tripple distillation (imho). This is a question I cannot answer unfortunately.

However there is another question which arises from these discussions. Why have a single minded view to Irish whiskey.

I put it down to the major slump at the turn of the last century and the merger of Jameson, Paddy & powers into Irish Distillers aand the opening of Midelton New Distillery in the early 70's. This was survival but damaged Irish whiskey in a way as they concentrated on blends.

From the 70s -90's the majority of midelton's bottled output was blended Irish whiskey. However they also produced large amounts of pure potstill but the majority of this was used in blends like Powers, Jameson, Jameson21yo etc. They only produced Greenspot and Redbreast on a limited basis and at the time were the only 2 pure potstills available.

It's sister distillery Bushmills produced mailny malts but also produced blends the likes of reg Bushmills, Blackbush and 1608(with grain whiskey from midleton). However pretty much anything with an age statement is a malt at Bushmills.

Then Cooley came along in 1987 and by the late 90's started bringing out various different brands. I would reckon the Majority of Cooley brands are Malts and they seem to concentrate on single Malts Just like Bushmills. So out of 3 distilleries in Ireland 2 are mainly malt producers. This may sound pathetic but these irish distilleries can produce far more expressions than your average scottish distillery choses to do.

Eventhough Jameson regular (blend), volume wise, out strips any irish whiskey by a country mile this is only one expression of Irish whiskey. Take a look at the shelf of a good Irish whiskey stockist you'll find that nearly half of the expressions are single malts.

In my collection I have 115 different expressions of Irish whiskey.

57 are blends 49 are single malts and 8 are pure pot stills.

Below is a list of expressions which are in regular production.

Irish Blends

Blackbush, Bushmills reg, Clontarf Black, Clontarf Reserve, Dunphy's, Feckn Irish, Hewitt's, Innishowen, Jameson reg, Jameson 12, Jameson 18, Kilbeggan, Lockes, Merry's, MidletonVR, Millars, Powers, Powers 12, Paddy, Tullamore Dew, Tullamore Dew 12,

Total 21


Irish Malts

Bush 10, Bush 16, Bush 21, Bushmills Single Cask(various) Clonmel, Clonmel 8, Clontarf, Connemara reg, Connemara CS, Connemara 12, Knappogue, Locke's 8, Merry's, Magilligan, Magilligan 8, Clonmel 8, Tyrconnell.

Total 17

I hope people can start looking at Irish in a different way, it is far more interesting than it's given credit for. I just want to try and Educate all you malt maniacs :wink:

Some of my favourites are blends and I would chose them over a single malt (Scotch, Irish or other wise) at the drop of a hat. A good whiskey is a good whiskey at the end of the day.

My favourites at te moment (and it does change) is Redbreast 15yo and Talsiker 10yo .... oh i could start now ... yummm
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Postby Aidan » Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:31 pm

irishwhiskeychaser wrote:I'm confused how can something be distilled 2.25 times... Oh well :?


Adrian

The would basically distill it twice, but some of the distillate goes back into the spirit still for a further distillation. Or else they could divert a portion of the distillation away after two distillations and let some carry on to a third still.
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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:26 pm

Aidan wrote:
irishwhiskeychaser wrote:I'm confused how can something be distilled 2.25 times... Oh well :?


Adrian

The would basically distill it twice, but some of the distillate goes back into the spirit still for a further distillation. Or else they could divert a portion of the distillation away after two distillations and let some carry on to a third still.



Ah yes... now I see... thanks for the clarification.
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Postby Lawrence » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:10 pm

From the Springbank website;

Why is Springbank said to be distilled two and a half times?


Following fermentation, the wash is charged to the wash still where it is distilled to produce low wines, which contains around 20% ABV. The low wines are then distilled a second time to produce feints, which contains around 50% ABV.

A proportion of the low wines from the first distillation is then mixed with a proportion of feints from the second distillation, and is distilled a third time. Because some of the resulting spirit has been distilled twice, and some three times, it is said Springbank is distilled two and a half times.

Longrow is double-distilled in the traditional Scottish manner, while Hazelburn is triple-distilled.


There are several other distilleries in Scotland that follow a similar practice but don't advertise the fact.
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Postby kallaskander » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:10 am

Hi there,

Cooley is confusing the issue by calling their malts "pure pot stills" on their labels. If they refer to the fact that they do distill them solely in copper pot stills they are right of course in a technical sense.
What the produce are not Irish pure pot stills because the are not made from malted and unmalted barley but from malted barley alone.
So calling a single malt thats what they are a "pure pot still" for marketing reasons does not help the consumer.

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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:44 am

kallaskander wrote:Hi there,

Cooley is confusing the issue by calling their malts "pure pot stills" on their labels. If they refer to the fact that they do distill them solely in copper pot stills they are right of course in a technical sense.
What the produce are not Irish pure pot stills because the are not made from malted and unmalted barley but from malted barley alone.
So calling a single malt thats what they are a "pure pot still" for marketing reasons does not help the consumer.

Greetings
kallaskander



That is quite true Kallaskander... Cooley have been mocked for this type of labeling and you are right it does not help. Sure over half of the single malts of the world could say that they are pot still then. As you say technically speaking they may legally be able to claim but it is not the traditional pure potstill that they are producing.

I would reckon it was a deliberate marketing ploy to get both people who were looking for single malts and pot still irish and the prime example is Tyrconnel.

However I think that they have learned their lesson and are taking the pure potstill reference off bottles that also claim to be single malt if they have not done so already.

Cooley have done a lot to change the Irish whiskey industry but they have made afew mistakes too.... Just goes to should they are human after all :wink:
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Postby Aidan » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:47 am

Irish Distillers is as bad. Their marketers nearly always say that all Irish whiskey is triple distilled and unpeated, which, of course, is rubbish.
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