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do higher alcohol drinks affect your liver more?

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do higher alcohol drinks affect your liver more?

Postby Marvin » Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:36 pm

Are you more likely to get liver problems from drinking spirits than wine or beer?
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Postby TheLaddie » Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:12 pm

Not necessarily (unless you drink your whisky in pint measures...)

It is the absolute amount of alcohol that matters. If you drink 500ml of beer at 4.6% ABV you are drinking the same amount of alcohol as a 50ml measure of 46% ABV whisky. Drink a 70cl bottle of whisky you will do as much damage to your liver as drinking 14 pints of beer.

The bad news is spirits do increase the chances of some other problems more than long drinks, in particular some cancers of the mouth, throat and gullet. This effect is multiplied many times if you smoke as well (and smoking shafts your palate.)

Enjoy your malt in moderation and you will have many more years to enjoy it. Don't waste your liver capacity on crap.
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Postby Marvin » Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:25 pm

C_I wrote:Butanol and propanol are definately bad drinking.


:lol:
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Postby bamber » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:44 am

The research I've looked at inidicates that spirit drinking is worse for you than other forms of drinking:

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth ... ctype.html

I don't think it would be unreasonable to extrapolate those results to hypothesise that CS whisky is very bad for you indeed :(

However, I do not believe these results take into account socioeconomic factors. Possibly malt drinkers have healthier lifestyles, in other respects, which offset these figures.[/i]
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Liver damage

Postby Muskrat Portage » Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:18 pm

bamber wrote:The research I've looked at inidicates that spirit drinking is worse for you than other forms of drinking:
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth ... ctype.html
I don't think it would be unreasonable to extrapolate those results to hypothesise that CS whisky is very bad for you indeed :(
However, I do not believe these results take into account socioeconomic factors. Possibly malt drinkers have healthier lifestyles, in other respects, which offset these figures.[/i]

Bamber:
I do have to concur, as I suspect most of the forum does, that excessive abuse of any mood altering chemicals will have a long term adverse effect on the metabolism. I had researched this on another thread reguarding "are you an alcoholic" and found that deaths from alcohol abuse are higher than those recorded for drug abusers. Also, that the recommended guidelines for daily alcohol intake are lower in Canada, than in the European studies.
My conclusions then as now are the same, where moderation will allow longer enjoyment of dramming, however I had neglected the concept that CS may be worse for you, thank you for illuminating me, Sion.
I had also found a comment during my research for our whisky tasting group; that whisky, due to it's production process, was considered carcinogenic in nature. At that point I very nearly vowed to give up reading. However, nearly anything we ingest could, with abuse, trigger some sort of health problem up to and including carcinogenic cell generation, so I conclude that I should enjoy my sins in moderation and maintain a healthier lifestyle*. I was pleased to hear this week that stem cell research has uncovered that some forms of cancer can be stopped by killing cancer stem cells. Now they just have to figure out how to do that.
Pete

*NB: To date, due to Karate lessons twice a week, I've dropped 25 pounds and dropped three pant sizes, to 250 lbs and a 42" waist. At 6'3" it's quite noticeable and I have substantially more energy. :!:
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Postby Marvin » Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:50 pm

I would think more afluent people probably drink spirits more than poorer people.
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Postby TheLaddie » Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:45 pm

bamber wrote:The research I've looked at inidicates that spirit drinking is worse for you than other forms of drinking:


I've not seen that research until now. It's strange that the researchers didn't look specifically at liver related mortality.

Funnily enough very few of the patients I see in clinic with cirrhosis are spirit drinkers. The majority tend to be beer or cheap white cider drinkers. Of those who are spirit drinkers the majority are vodka drinkers. I have met few who are whisky drinkers and I can't remember one who was a malt drinker.

Obviously this is from my memory and in a small area of one country so it can't necessarily be extrapolated across the rest of the world.

Maybe it is just that it would be an expensive habit to be a single malt alcoholic...
Last edited by TheLaddie on Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Marvin » Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:48 pm

Wouldnt high alcohol drinks be bad for your stomach and intestines too?
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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:34 pm

Interesting debate ..... I suppose you would have to say that the higher the ABV the worse off you will be in the long run if you are over dramming but I would imagine that if you are not swigging the stuff down by the bottle you should be all right
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Postby Elagabalus » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:59 pm

Marvin higher alcoholic drinks are worse for you than lower alcoholic drinks.

However if you down 2 litres of wine a night or a dram of scotch a night what do YOU think is worse?
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Re: Liver damage

Postby Deactivated Member » Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:28 am

Muskrat Portage wrote:*NB: To date, due to Karate lessons twice a week, I've dropped 25 pounds and dropped three pant sizes, to 250 lbs and a 42" waist. At 6'3" it's quite noticeable and I have substantially more energy. :!:


I am down 35 pounds since January; my starting figures were similar to your current ones. You have a way to go to catch up, Musky!

Can anyone comment on the notion that the real danger is in overloading the liver? Is drinking x number of units over a long period of time safer than drinking the same number of units in a binge?
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Postby bamber » Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:14 pm

I *think* that binge drinking is worse but that the liver benefits from at least a 48 hour break / week.
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Postby kildalton » Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:56 pm

To be honest I think that the plastic food industry is gonna try to push in our stomach every day is far worse and dangerous than whisky.
Paracelsus said :"the does makes the poison" so if one does not exaggerate in drinking I think it's all right
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much more dangerous

Postby Andrew_Toronto » Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:42 pm

High alcohol drinks are much more dangerous to drink than beer or wine.

The liver metabolizes waste/toxins. The more work the liver has to do, the faster it will "wear out" or become succeptable to disease. Scotch Whiskey is full of toxins. Alcohol is a toxin at certain doses (everyone is a bit different) as are the many other toxic componds also found in Whisky (and most other spirits. Some Vodkas are quite pure). Small amounts of alcohol can be benefical to digestion, blood pressure and stress (again, different for everyone).

Whisky has a least 40% alcohol, but you only drink a small amount (right?). A stout beer like Guinness has low alcohol but a much larger amount.

in therory they are more or less similar in total alcohol...

HOWEVER:

the the beer also contains a lot of water and sugars which aids in the matabolism of the alcohol thus putting less "strain" on the liver.

To prove this just realize that in many parts of the world beer and wine is drank in much greater quantities than say the U.S.A. yet the health is statistcally better (italy for example). No where is this true for spirits/hard alcohol. It only contributes to health and social problems.

Having said that...it's 11:30 nam and i'm dinrk a scotch.


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1 1/4 oz 10yr. Bruichladdie Scotch Whiskey

swirl port to coat glass, pour back excess, add scotch, swirl, drink.
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Postby Marvin » Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:48 pm

I read that in France they have much lower heart disease than in UK, and they reckon this is down to them drinking wine often with meals.

HOWEVER, what they often dont tell you is France has a higher level of liver disease than UK.
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Postby TheLaddie » Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:01 am

Marvin wrote:I read that in France they have much lower heart disease than in UK, and they reckon this is down to them drinking wine often with meals.

HOWEVER, what they often dont tell you is France has a higher level of liver disease than UK.


Actually a lot of it has to do with how statistics are measured and published:

In the UK and US deaths from heart disease are measured and recorded as such. If someone suddenly drops dead of a heart attack this is recorded as a death due to heart disease by the coroner's office and these form the basis of the statistics that are published by the respective governments.

In France however there is a separate category called "sudden death." This means that anyone suddenly dropping dead of a heart attack would not be included in the statistics for deaths due to heart disease. France's statistics on heart disease are therefore artificially low. (though probably still a little lower than the UK)

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

It is undoubtedly true however that moderate consumption of any sort of alcohol has a protective effect against heart disease. Red wine is supposed to have additional effect over other forms of alcohol. Their incidence of liver disease is indeed significantly higher than in the UK.

Trust me, I'm a doctor.
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Re: much more dangerous

Postby TheLaddie » Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:07 am

Andrew_Toronto wrote:High alcohol drinks are much more dangerous to drink than beer or wine.

The liver metabolizes waste/toxins. The more work the liver has to do, the faster it will "wear out" or become succeptable to disease. Scotch Whiskey is full of toxins. Alcohol is a toxin at certain doses (everyone is a bit different) as are the many other toxic componds also found in Whisky (and most other spirits. Some Vodkas are quite pure). Small amounts of alcohol can be benefical to digestion, blood pressure and stress (again, different for everyone).

Whisky has a least 40% alcohol, but you only drink a small amount (right?). A stout beer like Guinness has low alcohol but a much larger amount.

in therory they are more or less similar in total alcohol...

HOWEVER:

the the beer also contains a lot of water and sugars which aids in the matabolism of the alcohol thus putting less "strain" on the liver.

To prove this just realize that in many parts of the world beer and wine is drank in much greater quantities than say the U.S.A. yet the health is statistcally better (italy for example). No where is this true for spirits/hard alcohol. It only contributes to health and social problems.

Having said that...it's 11:30 nam and i'm dinrk a scotch.


"The Hunter"

1 drop(+) port (the best you have)

1 1/4 oz 10yr. Bruichladdie Scotch Whiskey

swirl port to coat glass, pour back excess, add scotch, swirl, drink.


Sorry Andrew but much of this is Hogwash. :roll:

Drink sounds nice though...
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Postby TheLaddie » Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:10 am

bamber wrote:I *think* that binge drinking is worse but that the liver benefits from at least a 48 hour break / week.


Spot on Sion.

UK recommendations are that your alcohol consumption is spread roughly equally over 3-5 days per week with at least two days alcohol free.
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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:09 am

The great thing about statistics is that you can use the same statistics to prove or disprove an argument :roll:
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Postby bamber » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:09 am

TheLaddie wrote:
bamber wrote:I *think* that binge drinking is worse but that the liver benefits from at least a 48 hour break / week.


Spot on Sion.

UK recommendations are that your alcohol consumption is spread roughly equally over 3-5 days per week with at least two days alcohol free.


Cheers Laddie. Now if I could only follow those recommendations :oops:
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Postby bamber » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:10 am

irishwhiskeychaser wrote:The great thing about statistics is that you can use the same statistics to prove or disprove an argument :roll:


I agree with you 72.4813 %
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Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:15 pm

irishwhiskeychaser wrote:The great thing about statistics is that you can use the same statistics to prove or disprove an argument :roll:


The great thing about cynicism is you can use it to ignore good advice you don't want to take! :wink:
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Postby Marvin » Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:22 pm

MrTattieHeid wrote:
irishwhiskeychaser wrote:The great thing about statistics is that you can use the same statistics to prove or disprove an argument :roll:


The great thing about cynicism is you can use it to ignore good advice you don't want to take! :wink:


Well said.
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Re: much more dangerous

Postby Andrew_Toronto » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:10 pm

exactly what do you consider hogwash?
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Postby Andrew_Toronto » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:21 pm

TheLaddie wrote:
bamber wrote:I *think* that binge drinking is worse but that the liver benefits from at least a 48 hour break / week.


Spot on Sion.

UK recommendations are that your alcohol consumption is spread roughly equally over 3-5 days per week with at least two days alcohol free.


Interesting that the UK guidelines differ from the US guidlines which differ form the Canadian guidlines. Same as the food guidelines.

Shouldn't they all be the same?

The answer lies in the differings of the political systems and the powers of the food and liquor lobbies. You can pick and choose studies and statistics to prove or disprove anything you like. It not cynicism, it's wise critical thinking.

The milk lobby would have you belive that 10 servings a day is healthy but they influence enough voters to get it on the offical recomended health plan. Alcohol is poisonous. Period. But you will never hear that from offical sources because the tax revenue and social impact is massive.

With all due respect, if your information comes strictly from Governmental guidelines you are being naive in thinking that they are correct.
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Statistics

Postby Onefortheditch » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:33 pm

50% of statistics are incorrect!!

I know lots of people in the highlands who have taken drams in moderation all their adult lives and lived to a ripe old age.

There are loads of factors that contribute to your life expectancy including genetics, diet, exercise, etc.

Cars/PCs/TVs are far more dangerous as the stop you taking exercise and burning off fatty fast foods.
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Postby Andrew_Toronto » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:39 pm

Onefortheditch

I agree 100%

(did you know that 57.3% of statistics are made up on the spot?)

: D
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Postby Marvin » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:47 pm

Andrew_Toronto wrote:
TheLaddie wrote:
bamber wrote:I *think* that binge drinking is worse but that the liver benefits from at least a 48 hour break / week.


Spot on Sion.

UK recommendations are that your alcohol consumption is spread roughly equally over 3-5 days per week with at least two days alcohol free.


Interesting that the UK guidelines differ from the US guidlines which differ form the Canadian guidlines. Same as the food guidelines.

Shouldn't they all be the same?


No, they are guides. Why would they all be the same if they were made up by different people? The basic message in all of them is the same - dont drink too much.
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Re: Statistics

Postby Marvin » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:48 pm

Onefortheditch wrote:50% of statistics are incorrect!!

I know lots of people in the highlands who have taken drams in moderation all their adult lives and lived to a ripe old age.

There are loads of factors that contribute to your life expectancy including genetics, diet, exercise, etc.

Cars/PCs/TVs are far more dangerous as the stop you taking exercise and burning off fatty fast foods.


There are people who have smoked all their lives and lived to a "ripe old age", just not that many. Statistics are useful.
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Postby Andrew_Toronto » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:20 pm

My point is that, in theory, you'd think that health guides (food and alcohol) from one country or another would be more or less the same (since we are all in fact the same: humans). But the fact that they differ (greatly in some cases) shows that there is no concensus as to what is really "healthy".

Some say no alcohol is safe, some say moderate use is safe, some say only specific kinds are safe (ie: red wine) others say only certain ages can drink (the US says in their guidelines that adolecents should never drink anything at all...many European cultures disagree with that). Health professionals and scientific studies do not agree let alone governments.

The truth is that what is good for one is not necessarily good for another.

The guidelines are misleading (just look at the many revisions they undergo over time...25 years from now they will be quite different depending on several factors)

Canada food guide suggest 5-12 servings of grain/pasta products a day (the biggest portion of the food "pyramid") yet there are studies which show that many humans genetically cannot properly digest wheat and grain products. (ask the Okinawins...they have one of the highest life spans...Diet high in Fish and Vegetables, low daily caloric intake, not much in the way of grains other than rice)

Canada and the States have massive meat, dairy and grain industries, these industries play a huge role in infulencing these guidelines as to what is "healthy" for us.

Statistics are only useful if you understand the methodology used in arriving at them.

Otherwise they can be completely missleading.
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Postby Marvin » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:28 pm

Andrew_Toronto wrote:My point is that, in theory, you'd think that health guides (food and alcohol) from one country or another would be more or less the same (since we are all in fact the same: humans). But the fact that they differ (greatly in some cases) shows that there is no concensus as to what is really "healthy".


They dont vary that much. Everyone knows that too much alcohol damages your liver. The guides are there to guide you, they are not definitive and dont claim to be. Some will have bigger safety margins than others, most likely. I expect the USA has big safety margins in case people sue.
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Postby bamber » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:42 pm

At the end of the day, you have to believe someone.

Maybe we should ignore national guidelines and try and get a bit closer to the source and look at peer reviewed research. Trouble is, a lot of research is very hard to understand !

Noone has all the answers, but if you drink in moderation, don't smoke, exercise regularly and eat a reasonalby balanced you are likely to live a good amount of time and enjoy the ride.

I for one enjoy pasta and will not be switching to a diet of fish and veggies :)
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Postby Andrew_Toronto » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:58 pm

and I recently discovered the joy of fois gras....delicious and deadly!
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Postby Marvin » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:24 pm

Andrew_Toronto wrote:and I recently discovered the joy of fois gras....delicious and deadly!


More deadly for the animal it comes from.
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Postby hpulley » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:58 pm

Marvin wrote:
Andrew_Toronto wrote:and I recently discovered the joy of fois gras....delicious and deadly!


More deadly for the animal it comes from.


So what happens if I eat too much corn on the cob???? Fois gras du homme?

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