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Importing spitis update

General chat and talk about whisky.

Importing spitis update

Postby r900p » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:44 pm

I've just read on another thread the problem with importing from germany, the item in questino was the 1984 jura george orwell, its in germany but can't be shipped due to import porblems.

Now i know this was discussed in another thread, i think MT started it off, is this inability to ship spirit across broders in the EU now come into affect.

I guess what i'm after is an update, plus will this affect the likes of online auctinos namly whiskyhammer and whiskyauctino.com. If it comes into affect, i guess us brits won't be able to bid.

If this has been discussed, which i know it has could someone point me in the right direction please,

Thanks,

Rob
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Postby les taylor » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:46 pm

Rob why would you want to import Spitis? :wink:
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Postby r900p » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:53 pm

Sorry i guess i need to clarify, when i refer to spirits i mean whisky, i've bought a few from germany, inlcuding a couple from MT, but there is some regulation coming into effect preventing spirits being sent across EU borders. I'm not literally importing, just acquiring a few bottles that are hard to get now in this country but still exsist in germany.

All i want to know is if i'll still be able to get my precious sent over here from germany, if indeed we can no longer send spirits inlcuding whisky across the EU.

Rob
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Postby Ann-Helen » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:42 am

I think you missed the point here ,Les was being funny since some letters in spirits has disappered in your headline so it says Spitis
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Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:05 am

Hi Rob,
there is a lot of info here:
http://www.whiskymag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5733

I am working very closely on this subject and hope to have more info in due course, but this law came into force as of Sept. 2006 and it seems that not many people know about it.

You have highlighted the two auction sites which are based in Germany, but this is not quite the point, the law affects actual sellers, not online auction sites, which are just venues for sellers!
What you need to look at is each individual seller and where they are prepared to ship to. Remember, this includes ALL internet sales, whether through auctions (including Ebay!!!), normal internet sales or even international telephone orders directly to sellers you already know.
This also includes all UK sellers who are offering to send bottles outside of the UK!!!

As I mentioned, I am looking very closely into this and working to find the reality of this law when it comes to paying the duties.
But if YOU are a seller, then you should be prepared to pay the correct duty on any excisable goods if you ship those goods into another EU state.
Oh, that duty MUST be paid before sending the goods too!

This has the possibility of being the most damaging law for whisky business. Just think of the larger UK outlets who rely upon orders from abroad - especially at Christmas-time.

I will keep you informed as I get more information.
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Postby les taylor » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:12 am

Sorry. I don't know what came over me.


:)
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Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:47 am

Rob,
just to clarify again, this does not prevent YOU from BUYING, but it makes it almost impossible for sellers to legally sell and ship alcohol or cigarettes (and possibly perfume? Is that also excisable goods?) across EU borders.

The problems will arise for the sellers, not the buyers (apart from when sellers refuse to ship to you).

The very silly thing here, when I think out loud about it, is that this has arisen because of countries like the UK complaining about losing revenue on Duty because of the amount of goods being bought abroad and shipped into the UK.

So, let's think about this the other way around for a minute:
The law states that to sell legally, a seller must now pay the correct amount of duty relevant to the country of the buyer, not his own country. In addition he is entitled to a Duty refund from his own country because the bottle was not sold there.
So, let's say shop xyz in the UK has been selling thousands of bottles to buyers in other EU countries, especially leading up to Christmas (as I know many do!). So far, these have all been paying Duty to UK Customs & Excise for bottles sent abroad.
Now, if the seller continues to send abroad, he pays duty to the receiving country NOT to the UK. This means he is able to claim all the UK duty back from Customs & Excise.

Hmmmmmm, doesn't the UK lose as much Excise revenue this way, if not more?

Secondly, as each EU state has a different rate of Duty to be paid, does this mean we will now see variable pricelists for buyers, depending on their country of residence?
If you live in say, Spain with low duty you may find that a bottle from the UK can be sold to YOU cheaper than the same bottle from the same dealer being sold to someone living in Sweden.

Oh boy, what fun! (NOT!!!)
Then there is the new UK Duty labelling issue:
Technically, when selling a bottle abroad this cannot be on the bottle as UK Duty MUST NOT be paid!
But do sellers need the correct Duty labels / stickers for each country they sell to?
I would imagine so.

MT
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Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:58 pm

les taylor wrote:Sorry. I don't know what came over me.


:)


Ditigal lysdexia.
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Postby les taylor » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:18 pm

LAGTIDI SYDALEXI !! :?:
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Postby kallaskander » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:45 pm

Hi there,

here some clues what it is all about.

http://eulaw.typepad.com/eulawblog/free ... index.html

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 05:EN:HTML

What it all adds up to is that the so called free market EC is not meant for the citizens.

The EC rule and the ruling of the EC law court defends the position of big spirits companies. They and the EC obviously do not like it when a British citizen buys his high taxed whisky in an EC member state where taxation is low. That is the essence of the matter. If I were Mr Gordon Brown I would probably see it the same way as the EC law court. But I am not him.

As Robert A. Heinlein put it: Taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed.

Greetings
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Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:12 pm

I don't think the big spirits companies care, since they do not benefit in any way from duties paid. In fact, I would think they would like to see anything that allows more units to be sold.

M-T asked, "Hmmmmmm, doesn't the UK lose as much Excise revenue this way, if not more?" I don't know, but certainly some countries will lose more this way, and others will gain more. If a country has high per-capita consumption and high duties, and a significant number of people buy from internet sites out of the country, that country will lose revenue, and any government would regard it as tax evasion. That's why you are limited in what you can bring back when you travel.

I should think the EU would want to move toward uniform duties for members. Then collection and distribution would be fairly straightforward, based on the shipping address. Private sales will always fly under the radar.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:26 pm

Kallaskander,
that is now a very well documented case about the Dutchmen and the wine, but things seem to have changed since then.
That case was taken because the buyers were charged Duty when they received the goods which were shipped from another EU country.

What the law (since Sept. 2006) now says is that Duty is payable in the country of receipt of goods, but not by the buyer, by the seller!

Anyone selling excise goods and shipping to another EU country MUST pay the relevant amount of duty in that country BEFORE SHIPPING.
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Postby irishwhiskeychaser » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:05 pm

Rob have you emailed the online shop that you saw your long sought bottle. The German online retailers are usually good for that sort of thing.

I had an email from

http://www.spirituosen-superbillig.de/

to say they were shipping again but I have not got an order since.
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Postby r900p » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:26 pm

Irish whisky chaser,

my long sought bottle is still being sought, MT (whisky-empoium) is doing the honours, found other rarities at http://www.maltsandmore.de, though they are quite good large sellection and not too badly priced.

Just to me Germany get the best pick or so it seems, and so ones missing from my collection are European editions not available in this country

It just find it strange some retailers still ship others refuse.

Just have to pop over to Germany once every so often.

Rob
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Postby Deactivated Member » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:07 pm

Now I may get arrested for this, but I think it is every EU-citizens' civic duty to oppose laws that do not serve us, laws made by bureaucrats that have long since grown stuck to their seats and tables by mold and mildew.

I personally make every effort to take action and encourage others to oppose any legal insanity that the EU lawmakers make us bear whilst breaking the very fundaments upon which the whole European Union were founded on, including FREE MOVEMENT OF GOODS WITHIN EU. Similarly on taxes - IF DUTY IS PAID IN ONE MEMBER STATE, IT NEED NOT BE PAID AGAIN IN ANOTHER.

I would encourage publicly all to smuggle, break the rules, and to take the time to gesture a rude handsign towards the increasingly confused lot of useless politicians in Brussels. They are the biggest criminals breaking the founding chapters of EU as they please these days.

No wonder no nation accepts the EU constitution: Why should we? At the end of the day the whole EU seems to be expanding insanely while simultaneously breaking from the inside, while the rest of the world laughs at us.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:45 pm

Of course you will support a rise in other taxes in the UK to make up for the revenue lost to international internet sales of alcohol.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:44 pm

I would just like to add that amongst the many other very important things occupying me at the moment, this issue remains a high priority.

So far I have established direct contact with the following authorities and am speaking with the specifically responsible people about this very real problem:

GB Consul Gemeral in Munich, Germany,
GB office of HM C&E in Bonn, Germany,
GB HM C&E in UK.
EU Tax authority in Brussels - at the highest level!

Although I now know the actual law within the EU, I am still discussing issues of implementation.
As promised, I will keep you updated as and when I have more information.
MT
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Postby Aidan » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:01 pm

I know the Irish authorities wouldn't bother checking up on all this stuff. So all I have to do is convince German retailers that we don't care a jot about the law over here...
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Postby les taylor » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:15 pm

Nice one Aidan. I hope your successful.



:)
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