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glenfiddich 21yo gran reserva or 21yo havana reserve

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glenfiddich 21yo gran reserva or 21yo havana reserve

Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:53 pm

is the gran reserva just the havana rebadged?

is the havana worth more, ive seen the havana for sale for £150ish compared to the gran at £50

any advice appriciated

cheers

ash .
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:16 pm

150 GBP for the Havana Reserve?
That's far too much although the price should increase over time.

Very briefly;
thanks to the US trade embargo with Cuba and products supporting the Cuban economy, Glenfiddich were forced to discontinue the "Havana Reserve" and it was replaced by "Gran Reserva".

According to this link (in German) the Gran Reserva is still finished in Cuban rum casks, so I would say that it looks like just the name was changed.

http://germany.glenfiddich.com/shop/prod_havana_reserve_21.html

MT
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Postby Lawrence » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:17 pm

The Havana Reserve has been replaced with the Gran Reserva due to the problems with the USA and the Cuban embargo. At a recent Glenfiddich tasting we were told they have sourced another rum producer to buy casks from, can't remember which one right now.
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:19 pm

Malt-Teaser wrote:150 GBP for the Havana Reserve?
That's far too much although the price should increase over time.

Very briefly;
thanks to the US trade embargo with Cuba and products supporting the Cuban economy, Glenfiddich were forced to discontinue the "Havana Reserve" and it was replaced by "Gran Reserva".

According to this link (in German) the Gran Reserva is still finished in Cuban rum casks, so I would say that it looks like just the name was changed.

http://germany.glenfiddich.com/shop/prod_havana_reserve_21.html

MT


my thoughts, i know about the cuban thing, but is it worth £100 more for the havana and will it increase in value due to the changes

ash .
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:27 pm

Ash,
the Havana was originally meant to be a standard 21y expression, but it was discontinued as already mentioned.
This fact has made it a collectible, but I have no idea how long it was produced and sold before it was removed, therefore I have no idea how many bottles are out there.

For sure, as a collectible this will now begin to increase in price, but I would not say that it is yet worth that kind of money.
My own belief is that it should take at least another 2-4 years before that price is generally achieved / accepted.
If you look even longer term, in the region of 10+ years, then I would consider it to be a sound investment (or speculation to some).

MT
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Postby Deactivated Member » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:36 pm

mt

cheers for that

thionk i'll go for a bottle of the gran reserve for drinking


ash .
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Postby Lawrence » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:43 pm

ash005 wrote:mt

cheers for that

thionk i'll go for a bottle of the gran reserve for drinking


ash .


IMHO the 18 is much better.
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Postby vitara7 » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:13 pm

as mt said, to the collector it is worth it, as it is only going to increase in value through time, whether there is any diffrence for the drinker between the two i have no idea.
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Postby Drrich1965 » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:21 pm

The are three, actaully. The origoinal Havana, of course from Cuban Rum. Then, there was the Gran Reserva made from Cuban Rum (which I picked up at duty free in Costa Rica), and now the Grand Reserva made from rum from another country.
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Postby Admiral » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:31 pm

The are three, actaully. The origoinal Havana, of course from Cuban Rum. Then, there was the Gran Reserva made from Cuban Rum


I have it on good authority that when they did the second release (i.e. the first Gran Reserva), they re-used exactly the same casks that they used for finishing the original release.

This is one of the main reasons why the subsequent releases never quite matched the quality of the first release. By using the very same casks for the finishing, there was less of the original cuban rum influence left in the wood to provide the same flavour profile.

I've not tasted the Gran Reserva since that second release. I felt it was so inferior to the original release that I never bothered to go back for more.

Cheers,
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Postby TheLiquorBaron » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:41 am

This question of the Gran Reserva and Havana Reserve has been going round for sometime and it would be great to get a true answer on this!! I have heard many times that the Havana Reserve had a name change due to the US embargo, there is also the rumour that the actual whisky is finished in different casks...However I have been told that it was NOT the embargo but in fact a problem in using the name 'Havana'. Oh and by the way, "I have it on good authority" :wink: :wink:
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Postby Deactivated Member » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:00 pm

I think the posts from Lawrence and Troy both show what has happened.

When I look again at the German article which I linked, I see that it mentions Havana Reserve changing to the Gran Reserva name but using Cuban casks. It then speaks about changing to (or now using) other (caribbean) rum casks.

I would say that the embargo forced a change, whether the initial objection was to the name Havana or the casks themselves, we maybe don't know for sure. But it does seem that initially the whisky didn't change - just the name did. But now different casks are being used, the whisky has also changed.

MT
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Postby Lawrence » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:25 pm

I recently attended a tasting with Ian Miller and he spoke about the problems that the Cuban connection created for the distillery in regards to the USA. They have now moved onto another source of rum casks to avoid any USA based pitfalls. The company has too much to loose by trying to sneak in a Cuban linked product. After all, they are looking for a certain taste profile not something that has Cuba written on it. He said it took they a while to find the correct rum. I don't think there is a conspiracy here.

After that I stopped paying attention.
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Postby TheLiquorBaron » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:45 pm

Well Lawrence, I would think Ian's info would be spot on the money...Did someone at the tasting ask specifically about this topic or did Ian just include it in the talk...??

I actually asked Ludo the very question when I attended a tasting last year...I'm thinking maybe the problem in the US arose from having both the name "Havana" and using the Cuban casks in association with one another, which if you look at it from a legal perspective, using the name Havana and the cuban casks associated together must have been in breach of US legislation. Now I'm just thinking out loud and I am no legal expert but I'm thinking that by droping the name Havana is in turn dropping the direct link to Cuba...as the actual casks are not being sold in the US and only the whisky from the casks, one may argue that the product is not of Cuban origin...however, there must be more to this story if GF are discontinuing the Cuban cask finish and moving to the Carribean casks...
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Postby Lawrence » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:50 pm

As I understand the history it was not the name that created problems it was the actual Cuban rum in the whisky that caused all the fuss, I think the US Commerce Dept. ruled against the product because of the Cuban rum content.

A tiny amount but there you go. In any case the USA is too big a market for Glenfiddich not to have a 21 YO rum finished whisky. There were many articles written about the subject at the time, I believe Glenfiddich actually turned it to their advantage, a la Bruichladdich.
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Postby Lawrence » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:03 pm

A quick search on Google and I found this article;

Glenfiddich's new 'Cuban' Scotch off-limits to U.S. drinkers
CubaNews / February 2003
By Larry Luxner

Hyped as “an eclectic fusion of Scotland and Cuba,” Glenfiddich Havana Reserve 21 Year Old Scotch whisky is already making handsome profits for its distillers, William Grant & Sons International Ltd.

“Basically, we’ve sold everything we could produce,” the distiller’s rare whisky manager, James Doherty, said in a phone interview.

Since launching it last June, William Grant & Sons has sold about 1,800 cases of Glenfiddich Havana Reserve. At the rather stiff price of £59 (around $97.30) for a 700-ml bottle, that comes to more than $2.1 million in sales.

Yet because this particular whisky is aged in casks that once contained Cuban rum, you won’t find it for sale in any U.S. liquor store.

“We have had two independent legal opinions concluding that this product has acquired a sufficient Cuban connection to run afoul of the Helms-Burton Act,” Doherty told CubaNews. “So we have chosen not to sell it in the United States.”

Says Max Castro, a senior research associate at the University of Miami’s North-South Center: “This points out the absurd extremes to which the embargo has gone. More often than not, it ends up with interpretations that are dubious and almost laughable.”

For Europeans and Canadians, however, that “Cuban connection” has given Glenfiddich Havana Reserve a bit of sex appeal — a fact its distillers have carefully exploited through television spots filmed in Old Havana and promoted on the company website.

“We brought aged rum from the Sierra del Escambray region of Sancti Spíritus province and filled it into casks for a period of up to two years before emptying the casks and filling them with whisky for the final six months of maturation,” Doherty explained.

“The wood has picked up character from the rum, and the whisky then draws some of the character out of the wood,” he said. “The result is an exotic blend of toffee, banana, ginger and a subtle zing of lime.”

According to Doherty, the unusual product came about because “we were looking for a new adventure, to add an element of intrigue to Glenfiddich” — a single-malt whisky brand that has been distilled in Scotland since 1887.

He said the company considered rums from Venezuela, Guyana and elsewhere before settling on the Cuban variety. “For me, it’s all about having the right taste, and yes, Cuba adds cache to the product. In our case, it’s had a particularly good effect on sales.”

For now, most TV spots have been aimed at the U.K. and European markets, though Glenfiddich Havana Reserve is now also available in Canada, where it sells for C$130 to C$150 a bottle and is being marketed with the slogan: “Politics hang heavily over this product.”

Bernard Pearson, vice-president of PMA Ltd., the Toronto-based sales agent for Glenfiddich, says “we have a waiting list. We can’t keep up with the demand.”

Even so, the new Scotch constitutes less than 0.25% of the company’s total annual volume of 770,000 cases.

While he declined to go into details about the financial arrangements, Doherty did say that William Grant & Sons buys the Cuban rum from an intermediary based in the U.K., and not directly from the Cuban government.
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Postby TheLiquorBaron » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:17 pm

Good find Lawrence!! :wink:

This might be getting a little too political and slightly off topic but...I am sooo glad I am not a US citizen!! I can puff on a Cuban cigar while drinking a fine Cuban Rum!!
Mr. Bush if you ever want to pop over for a fine Cuban cigar and a precious drop of Cuban rum, please feel free...Oh wait, you can't even touch the stuff outside of the US either...
Oh well, your loss :P
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Postby ResIpsa539 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:33 pm

My bottle says it's finished in "Carribean Rum Casks".
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Postby TheLiquorBaron » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:26 am

Alan what is the bottle labeled as??
Gran Reserva or Grand Reserve...??
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Re: glenfiddich 21yo gran reserva or 21yo havana reserve

Postby woodhill » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:43 pm

Until recently Sainsburys in calais were selling the havan for the equiv. of about £40!
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