George T. Stagg bottling details...

[lohssanami]

I was wondering if any of you experts out there could check this list and correct it if it's wrong. I grabbed the information thru 2005 from the straightbourbon forum, but it didn't have the 2006,7 info.

I just wanted to have the correct information as I look for some bottles.

2002 -- 137.6
2003 -- 142.7
2004 -- 129
Spring 2005, Lot A -- 130.9 (KY)
Spring 2005, Lot B -- 131.8 (rebarreled)
Fall 2005 -- 141.2
Fall 2006 -- 140.6
Fall 2007 -- 144.8

Thanks...

[Laphroaig]

San Jo, Cali - eh? Curious do you find a good selection of Antique Collection items in SJ?

From the site you mentioned (SB.C) here is the GTS fact sheet (2007).

[lohssanami]

I don't really see anything of Stagg other than at 1 or 2 stores and it is the latest release.

I was browsing on the web earlier, and I found some info on the different releases of Stagg so I thought I would just write it down. Then I figured I would make a POST in case anyone else was looking for the same stuff.

[Laphroaig]

I see, neighbor. If you're ever up north to 'tha city', I know a market you might look into that has several vintages of GTS as well as various Sazerac Rye 18s and some Eagle Rare 17s.

[Di Blasi]

I see, neighbor. If you're ever up north to 'tha city', I know a market you might look into that has several vintages of GTS as well as various Sazerac Rye 18s and some Eagle Rare 17s.

What shop in "tha city" is that Laphroaig?? The John Walker shop or something? I remember they had a nice selection of bourbons there last time I visited.

[Xxandr]

Which way 125 proff at barrel entry becomes 144.8 proof after 15 years?

[Laphroaig]

Because in Kentucky the proof of whiskey generally accelerates after the first couple of years of warehousing.

KY whiskey "cycles" a lot faster than whiskey warehoused in Scotland. One way or another more water is forced out of barrels than alcohol over the long haul. Bourbon can not legally enter barrels over 125 proof. Booker's also is commonly bottled above the barrel entry ceiling.

[mikeymad]

I had the "Fall 2005 -- 141.2" over the weekend at a friends.

It was very good.

But I also had a 23yo Rye that was much better (what it was, I don't know)...

Cheers,

[Laphroaig]

But I also had a 23yo Rye that was much better (what it was, I don't know)...

Cheers,

Do you remember what the bottle looked like?

While the brand might not be distinguishable by your memory, there's pretty much only a couple of original sources of rye whiskey 23 years old.

[mikeymad]

It was a large white label, that seemed to be mostly hand written. I have sent a PM to the owner of the house we gathered at. It was a headphone meet in Fairfax. I will let you know when I know....

I know it was not the "Black Maple Hill" or "Rittenhouse"

Cheers,

[Laphroaig]

Was it perhaps the 22 year old "Willet" Rye?

Does that strike a bell?

[mikeymad]

It is possible, I just could not find an image to look at one. I guess that we just have to wait for my friends reply.....

Cheers,

[Drrich1965]

Rittenhouse rye comes in a 23 year old...

[mikeymad]

Rittenhouse rye comes in a 23 year old...

Correct, as well as the Black Maple Hill...

[Laphroaig]

... so does Vintage rye which all except the Rittenhouse (if I understood correctly) are rye from the same original source. I thnk LeNell might have had a bottling of a 23 year old Rye as well nick named Redhook Rye or something along those lines. It wasn't that was it?

I snagged this off SBdotC just now. The bottles off to the right are Willet bottles:

[mikeymad]

It turns out it was the "Black Maple Hill"



Cheers,

[Di Blasi]

Hey Laphroaig, suggest to those folks in charge of those bottles in the foto they seal them completely, push those corks down!! Also, was LeNell's Redhook Rye a 23 year old, wow!! Anyone tasted it?? I think it sold out quick?
And mikeymad, this is a must taste and get then?! Any characteristics you remember?

[Laphroaig]

I'm pretty sure the corks are up because multiple people were tasting those bottles the day the photo was taken (I could be wrong of course), but I'm pretty sure those guys would know what they were doing. The other little bottles look like straight from a distillery barrel samples.

Anyway I tasted I think the first Redhook Rye. It was good but I hear the subsequent or a later barrel she purchased was even more interesting. Never tasted it.

The BMH - I'm undecided. They've had excellent bottles and some sort of iffy (for my taste). CVI is local (this is the company that takes credit for the BMH whiskey), but it's damn expensive, in fact outside CA it's often cheaper - which is a definite turn-off for me!

Di Blasi: The catch is, BMH, Willett, LeNell's Red rye, etc. are all the same whiskey. It's all purchased from KBD (today) and it's fairly certain that they were all distilled at the same facility. They pretty much amount to different selections of barrels from a small few batches that couldn't sell in their day.

Something else to ponder. Do you notice that the BMH bottle, the Willett bottle, all of the Pappy Van Winkle bottles, the A.H. Hirsch bottle etc. look exactly the same - they're in what whiskey enthusiasts dubbed "cognac style" bottles? It's my understanding that Julian Van Winkle use to bottle BMH when it first started out. It's my understanding that he bottled A.H. Hirsch's bourbon as well.

[Di Blasi]

Great info Laphroaig, thanks! I completely agree with you about
"in fact outside CA it's often cheaper - which is a definite turn-off for me!"
Them all bottled the same is interesting, kind of confirming/strengthening their origins. I guess we must pick our favorite bottler and chooser of the cask then. Hopefully I'll get the chance to taste some of these when I'm in New York the end of April.
Thanks again for all the information Laphroaig!

[oldrip57]

Kentucky Bourbon Distillers (aka, KBD) -- Even and Drew Kulsveen -- do, indeed, bottle the Black Maple Hill rye (at 18 years old), and the Willett ryes (bottled originally for Doug Philips as a private bottling) and Red Hook ryes (LeNell's in Brooklyn) do come from their warehouses. Almost all of that the old rye in circulation -- including the Sazerac 18yo (which is tanked in stainless steel and actually much older) -- comes from Old Medley, Early Times, the original Berheim, and/or Ancient Age (now Buffalo Trace) distilleries.
KBD also bottles a 23yo rye under its "Vintage" label.
And, yes, Julian Van Winkle was the original bottler for the Black Maple Hill line, which is owned by CVI Imports in California. He had to give up that contract when he joined his operation with Buffalo Trace's. KBD has bottled it since. Older Van Winkle-bottled BMH will list Lawrenceburg, KY on the label, the newer versions were bottled from Bardstown. Julian also oversaw the bottling of the Hirsches, the last of which (the gold-foil 16yo) occurred in Fall 2003.

[Laphroaig]

oldrip:

My understanding was the old rye whiskey Even and Jr. bottle (Willett, Red Hook, Black Maple Hill, Classic Cask, their own "Vintage" etc. etc.) was originally Bernheim whiskey. Is that incorrect?

It was also my understanding that Julian's FR Rye 13 (which is really close to 20 years of age) is currently a tanked marriage of Medley and Bernheim ryes. It also sounds like the Sazerac Rye was tanked as a similar marriage back around 2004. Of course I have yet to hear anyone on staff at Buffalo Trace admit the Saz has been tanked at all.

The question is this. Why was so much rye made between 1981-1985? There was no real market. I've heard the theory that the industry was just stubborn and pretended to ignore downward trends. That's reasonable but I don't really recall there being a large rye market before that which could have been over-estimated and collapsed. Rye didn't seem to be highly in fashion anyway. So I'm still stuck at why produce the amount they did in the first place ?

Not that I'm complaining about the current results.

[oldrip57]

oldrip:

My understanding was the old rye whiskey Even and Jr. bottle (Willett, Red Hook, Black Maple Hill, Classic Cask, their own "Vintage" etc. etc.) was originally Bernheim whiskey. Is that incorrect?..

Quite probably correct, though I suspect only the Kulsveens and the various selectors would (or not, so far) confirm. For what it's worth, Drew Kulsveen himself told me a couple of years ago that, at that time, they had rye in the KDB warehouses from Early Times, old Bernheim and "DSP-113", which is Buffalo Trace.

...It was also my understanding that Julian's FR Rye 13 (which is really close to 20 years of age) is currently a tanked marriage of Medley and Bernheim ryes. It also sounds like the Sazerac Rye was tanked as a similar marriage back around 2004. Of course I have yet to hear anyone on staff at Buffalo Trace admit the Saz has been tanked at all...

Correct, re Julian's rye. BT has recently confirmed to Malt Advocate's John Hansell that the Sazerac rye was tanked about three years ago (see his blog at their site).

...The question is this. Why was so much rye made between 1981-1985? There was no real market. I've heard the theory that the industry was just stubborn and pretended to ignore downward trends. That's reasonable but I don't really recall there being a large rye market before that which could have been over-estimated and collapsed. Rye didn't seem to be highly in fashion anyway. So I'm still stuck at why produce the amount they did in the first place ?..

That I have no answer for, just the same questions. But, let's all give due credit to Heaven Hill, Jim Beam and Wild Turkey, who have continued to produce rye even up to today (if only a day or two a year). Straight rye is wonderful whiskey. That we can still taste it today is because of them, in addition to the Kulsveens.

[Laphroaig]

Not to pick nits, oldrip, a couple of things come mind, First where would the Kulsveens be had Julian bought all the rye rather than reject what he did?

Second it was my understanding that like Julians FRR13, the Sazerac Rye was married with a similar rye and tanked in 2004. Given that marriage tidbit, I don't understand how BT is able to list the whiskey as all from warehouse K on the 2007 Fact Sheet. I notice they excluded a floor #.

[oldrip57]

Not to pick nits, oldrip, a couple of things come mind, First where would the Kulsveens be had Julian bought all the rye rather than reject what he did?

LOL. I have, indeed, heard Julian express regrets he didn't buy ALL the Medley rye when he had the chance. Still, credit Even K. for recognizing the remainder was worth warehousing.

...Second it was my understanding that like Julians FRR13, the Sazerac Rye was married with a similar rye and tanked in 2004. Given that marriage tidbit, I don't understand how BT is able to list the whiskey as all from warehouse K on the 2007 Fact Sheet. I notice they excluded a floor #.

Frankly, I don't remember whether or not the Saz 18 is a vatting of whiskeys from multiple distilleries. Wouldn't surprise me. I suspect they stored ALL of it in Warehouse K but, of course, negated the floor-number designations when they tanked it.
I haven't really kept up with the Saz 18, because it doesn't particularly impress me. Thus, what I know has generally come from general conversation with distillery folk, not specific questioning.

[Laphroaig]

I'm pretty sure the Sazerac 18 is now a tanked marriage ...and doubt the warehouse K designation covers the entire whiskey accurately.

[oldrip57]

Each of Buffalo Trace's warehouses contains thousands of barrels, and the well-aged Saz ryes, before tanking, would have numbered only in the hundreds of barrels. Makes perfect sense to store them in the same approximate location -- e.g., one warehouse -- to make the aging more-or-less uniform.
Thus, I don't doubt at all they came from the same house. Obviously, thought, the tank they're in is in a centralized location.

[Laphroaig]

Just to be clear, by marriage, I didn't mean a vatting of various Buffalo Trace rye distillates or whiskey from various BT warehouses / floors etc.

It was my understanding that rye of similar age was brought into BT to vat with the remaining Saz stock. I seriously doubt that sourced whiskey matured in warehouse K (is what I'm trying to say).

It's nice to see that John finally got the admission of the whiskey being tanked out. T'was late 2005 when we first heard of rumors of the tanking - that and the private wedding ceremony.

[oldrip57]

Just to be clear, by marriage, I didn't mean a vatting of various Buffalo Trace rye distillates or whiskey from various BT warehouses / floors etc.

It was my understanding that rye of similar age was brought into BT to vat with the remaining Saz stock. I seriously doubt that sourced whiskey matured in warehouse K (is what I'm trying to say).

It's nice to see that John finally got the admission of the whiskey being tanked out. T'was late 2005 when we first heard of rumors of the tanking - that and the private wedding ceremony.

Well, okay -- and I'm sure I'm picking a few nits here in return . But, here's where I'm coming from: Buffalo Trace has been as forthcoming about the provenance of its whiskeys as any American distillery/bottler (and I've been in their warehouses, and selected from their barrels!). If they say the Sazerac rye came from Warehouse Mars, I believe what they say, whether or not I understand the mechanics of it. I simply don't believe they would say what is not true. I won't say that about every bottler/distillery. But it HAS BEEN my experience with Buffalo Trace.

[Laphroaig]

Well... I agree and find Mark, Kris and the rest of the gang to be very forthcoming by comparison. That doesn't mean there is absolutely no room for error or oversight, particularly on a piece of parchment.

Ahh, so you too have participated in Buffalo Trace's Barrel Purchase program.

[oldrip57]

...Ahh, so you too have participated in Buffalo Trace's Barrel Purchase program.

Yeah : six barrels of Weller 12yo (from Old Fitzgerald/Stitzel-Weller stock); two Elmer T. Lees (for which Elmer cast the deciding ballot after my group split on the barrels -- then we took the second one anyway); and three Pappy 23s (unchill-filtered); all bottled singly.
I've also tasted samples in the lab (I have a single-barrel Stagg sample around here somewhere ), and have haunted most of the warehouses.
Good to be lucky .

[Laphroaig]

lol.

Having said all of that, I suppose I can see where one might be inclined to accept that barrels came from warehouse Mars ...if they said so.

[pennywise1]

I am currenty selling one bottle each of George T Stagg 2002 and 2005 Limited Release on eBay - Free shipping to 48 States:

2005 - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0369249637

2002 - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0370033194

Rare opportunity to acquire these excellent, rare Bourbon bottlings. Thanks for looking !!!

[p_elliott]

Because in Kentucky the proof of whiskey generally accelerates after the first couple of years of warehousing.

KY whiskey "cycles" a lot faster than whiskey warehoused in Scotland. One way or another more water is forced out of barrels than alcohol over the long haul. Bourbon can not legally enter barrels over 125 proof. Booker's also is commonly bottled above the barrel entry ceiling.

The legal entry level of bourbon into the barrel is 160 proof not 125 proof. How would Booker's , GTS, WLW, Handy all bottled about or above 125 proof be possible if entry level was 125? GTS is 144 proof ! The proof level in the barrel goes up with aging in some bourbon barrels but it's minimal.

[lohssanami]

I just thought I would update the list with last years release.

2002 -- 137.6
2003 -- 142.7
2004 -- 129
Spring 2005, Lot A -- 130.9 (KY)
Spring 2005, Lot B -- 131.8 (rebarreled)
Fall 2005 -- 141.2
Fall 2006 -- 140.6
Fall 2007 -- 144.8
Fall 2008 -- 141.8

I'm having a taste of the Fall 2008 as I write...

[oldrip57]

...The legal entry level of bourbon into the barrel is 160 proof not 125 proof. How would Booker's , GTS, WLW, Handy all bottled about or above 125 proof be possible if entry level was 125? GTS is 144 proof ! The proof level in the barrel goes up with aging in some bourbon barrels but it's minimal.

Simply, you are wrong. It must come off the still at no more than 160 proof, and be entered into the barrel at no more than 125 proof.
Stagg generally is 15 years old, or thereabouts. Thus, from 125 to 144 proof is 19 proof (9.5% abv) in 15 years, or well under a percent a year. Placed in a hilltop warehouse, in an upper floor near the outside wall, that's easily achieveable. Kentucky ain't Glasgow -- well, not Glasgow, Kentucky, anyway -- ya know!