Whisky & beer

[Admiral]

This post/topic is inspired by Coltrane's topic below entitled "It's rather bold of me...".

Knowing that the distilleries basically produce a form of beer prior to the wash being charged into the low wines still for the first distillation, it follows that those of us who enjoy malt whisky probably enjoy beer also.

Have people experimented to find out which beers go well with which malts?

I'm obviously biased, but I truly believe some of the finest beers come from here in Australia. (Don't ever, ever, pay any attention to Fosters. It may be the biggest beer to get exported from Australia to the world, but ironically it's the one beer that the majority of Aussies refuse to drink! It's awful!!)

Hahn Premium Lager from New South Wales is very malty, and goes very well with Cragganmore or Cardhu.

Tooheys Old, also from NSW, is a darker ale which sits well with a Bowmore.

Some of the fruitier beers from Tasmania (i.e. Coopers or Cascade) are excellent with a Glenmorangie or even a Macallan.

I've tried a few American beers (i.e. Budweiser and Millers Draft) but I find they're too soft and weak to compete with a good malt.

The dutch/german beers like Heineken, Grolsch, Bavaria, etc, are more robust, and they sit well with some of the Islay malts, but particularly (and strangely enough) Bunnahabhain. Also, I found Heineken and Glenfarclas an enjoyable combination!

There's some food for thought. Or drink?

Slainte,
Admiral

[Gate]

I find the more bitter makes of Pilsener beer work well with most whisky (although not with highly sherried ones) - Pilsener Urquell, Lowenbrau. VB is pretty good too. Otherwise, good IPA or bitter (Deuchar's, Black Sheep, etc.) make for a nice half-and-half. But I think stout and whisky just don't go together - not even Guinness and Jamesons.

[Rudy]

Hi Admiral,

it seems I'm the exception to your assumption: I do not like beer that much, I strongly prefer malts and (ahem) cognac.

I had some beers during my study and here's what I found:

most people serious about beer here in the Netherlands feel the same about Heineken as you do about Fosters. It is a good example of great marketing though.

(BTW: Heineken, Grolsch, Bavaria you mentioned are all dutch beers, no german ones.)

I think Belgian beers can suit well to malts. Not pilsner from Belgium, but traditionally brewed beers from small(er) breweries or abbeys like e.g. De Koninck, Duvel, Westmalle or West Vleteren. In Belgium they brew white, double, triple or even quadruple beers, fruity ones ('kriek') with a cherry note, beers with ABV's up to 14% and lots of other gems.
You might say that the variety of malts in Scotland can be equalled by the variety of beers in Belgium.

I don't know much about them, but if you're interested, you definitely should try them. But that I guess, is another quest.

Rudy.

[This message has been edited by Rudy (edited 02 June 2003).]

[Jeje]

Have you tasted single malts aged in beer casks? I had the opportunity to taste a single malt aged in Cantillon kriek casks at Edradour distillery: excellent!

My favourite beers are Belgian (Cantillon, Saint-Feuillien, Chimay, Brigand, Kasteel). French breweries also produce very good beers: Grain d'Orge and Goudale, for example. I'm not sure Trois Monts is French or Belgian.

As for Foster's, yes, it is awful!!!

[This message has been edited by Jeje (edited 10 June 2003).]

[Deactivated Member]

Hello, Admiral, I've been rummaging through your sock drawer and thought this topic was worth dredging up again. Hope you don't mind.

In my mind there is nothing better than a cask-conditioned Yorkshire bitter and the like. My favorites include:

Timothy Taylor Landlord
Black Sheep Bitter
Orkney Red MacGregor
Deuchar's IPA

These beers can only be properly appreciated in situ, that is to say, in a well-run British pub. At home, I enjoy a large number of American micros which take their inspiration from the English bitter, but which are of course an entirely different beast.

When I started drinking malts, I used to alternate sips, but shortly realized that I wasn't properly appreciating either one that way. Now I order a pint and a dram, and let the pint sit for the half-hour or forty minutes it takes to enjoy the dram. I love the way the cool beer tastes after my time with the dram, and I love the way the next dram tastes after a pint. Malt is malt, I suppose, but alternating hops and peat makes for a lovely dance on the tongue.

Budweiser, Miller, Heineken, Grolsch, Foster's, and others are Ninkasi's way of keeping the fools from buying up all the good stuff. American beers like Bud and Miller use a high proportion of corn and rice in their mash. Barley and only barley, I say! Much the same reason I've never been very interested in American whiskeys.

And now, I am just moments away from opening a bottle of beer from J. W. Lees that has been aged in Lagavulin casks. They also have beer from Calvados casks (one of those awaits me, also), sherry casks, and port casks. I've just remembered that I have a Signatory bottle of Highland Park, and I think I'll see how the two get on. Will report later.

[rthomson]

Recently I was invited to meet friends at a bar that I was not familiar with. I saw that they had only three beers on tap: Stella Artois, Leffe, and Hoegaarden. People will argue the quality of these beers and how well they represent Belgium but, being accustomed to seeing these as a choice of among, say, 20 beers, I was impressed with the small selection. I enjoyed the light, slighly citrus taste of Hoegaarden in Belgium but find that in the U.S. it has always sat in the keg too long, the rare pint being poured among all the other choices. I took a chance and it was by far the best Hoegaarden I've tasted in the states.

Anyway, being in a pleasant mood and enjoying the bar far more than I had expected I ordered a Talisker. The bar has several bottled Belgian beers with their requisite glasses so I asked for it in a Chimay glass, being preferable to the standard rocks glass. The 5 oz. dram I was served went quite well with the Hoegaarden, another pleasant surprise.

Typically, I like a good ESB or bitter with a single malt. I prefer a well-balanced, somewhat toned down beer if I'm drinking whisky. I find that many U.S. microbrewers go overboard when hopping their IPA's so I'm cautious when matching with one of those.

Still, a properly cask conditioned ale in the UK must make for a solid pairing.

Ron

[Deactivated Member]

So if you ask for your malt in a Chimay glass, you'll get five ounces? I'll have to try that.

The Hoegaarden must be where Bowmore gets its floral scent.

To my perplexed dismay, Stella Artois, that most ordinary of Belgian beers, seems to be the most popular beer in Britain. Just another example of the misguided believing that their local product is provincial, and an inferior foreign product is sophisticated.

(This has nothing to do with why I'm not interested in American whiskeys! )

[Crispy Critter]

To my perplexed dismay, Stella Artois, that most ordinary of Belgian beers, seems to be the most popular beer in Britain.

My sister brought home a taste for Stella after an extended trip to the UK (where she met her husband). IMHO, it was quite a bit better than Budweiser et.al., but it doesn't hold a candle to Chimay. When I took a much shorter trip across the pond while she was there, I found that I liked Boddington's (some consider it to be ordinary as well!) better than Stella...

[Mr Fjeld]

Great Thread!
I love beer - never tried to enjoy it together with whisky though!
For me there's a beer for each and every situation, if it's warm and nice outside I like to enjoy a cold pilsner or weissbier (wine too of course) , but for the long and dark winter evenings there's nothing better than a quality Porter, India Pale Ale, Amber and such I like Westmalle/Chimay Trappist/Tripel but after discovering a norwegian micro brewery called "Nøgne Ø" I never looked back. And with beer as with whisky (not pilsner of course) most beers are destroyed by filtering! What is exciting with quality beer is that the residue in the bottle enables it to be matured in the bottle almost like a wine!
I also have to agree with Mr Tattieheid that it's a good thing most people haven't discovered the special stuff! This is only helped by the fact that class 3 alcohol (above 4,5%) is only sold in the winemonopoly. Another good argument for the well working norwegian state monopoly (mostly very good in fact). My best beer to this date is a micro brewery from Norway (Nøgne Ø) making several beer types and in general very hard to get hold of outside the Vinemonopol.

Skål!
Christian

[Deactivated Member]

CC, you are quite correct that Stella is far superior to Bud et al, but it is a very ordinary European pilsner/lager. Considering the amazing array of beers brewed in Belgium, its popularity is a vexatious annoyance.

Which brings me to Boddington's...not a bad beer, actually, and if it were brewed in Ireland, it would fit right in with Caffrey's and Kilkenny (you bastard!). But to the extent that it shortstops people from discovering the delights of real ale, it is as much a vexatious annoyance to me as Stella. In my less-than-humble opinion, CC, British cask ale is the best beer in the world, and nitro-keg beers like Boddington's are poor counterfeits. If you have the opportunity to go back, get a knowledgeable local to set you on the right path. British "real ale" is the right stuff, in much the same way that Scotch whisky is.

QV: http://www.camra.org.uk , the Campaign for Real Ale.

Now I'd better say something about whisky, or I'll have gone entirely off-topic...uh.... Whisky is good!

[Deactivated Member]

Oh, Christian, where was this Nøgne Ø when I was in Bergen? We were reduced to drinking Kilkenny (you bastard!) and the like, although the Norwegian pilsners and lagers were pretty decent, too. There was a decent brewpub in Trondheim, apparently sister to one in Oslo, that served fairly standard American-style brewpub beer--that is, the American take on porter, stout, bitter, IPA, etc. I won't ask you to describe the micro's beers here in a whisky forum--maybe you could pm me.

Whisky is still good!

[Mr Fjeld]

Oh, Christian, where was this Nøgne Ø when I was in Bergen? We were reduced to drinking Kilkenny (you bastard!) and the like, although the Norwegian pilsners and lagers were pretty decent, too. There was a decent brewpub in Trondheim, apparently sister to one in Oslo, that served fairly standard American-style brewpub beer--that is, the American take on porter, stout, bitter, IPA, etc. I won't ask you to describe the micro's beers here in a whisky forum--maybe you could pm me.

Whisky is still good!

Hi Mr Tattieheid!
You've been most unfortunate to have missed some of the best beers I've ever had the pleasure of drinking! The most important factor I look for in the beer is the amount of bitterness to balance the sweetness - period! And "Nøgne Ø" delivers by the ton!

You absolutely have to contact me next time you come to Bergen and I'll advice you as best as I can!

And Whisky is best!

Skål!
Christian

[Aidan]

Guinness and Powers, a pint of stout and a ball of malt. Nothing goes better together.

I love beer, particularly European beers, although I hear there are some great microbeers in America. Chimay, Leffe, Staropromen, Hogarten, Budvar, Lowenbrau ... but the best I've tasted is Augustiner from Munich. Used to drink it all the time when I was there, beautiful.

I also particularly like the Belgian lambics (sp).

Michael Jackson is the man to talk to about this, I believe, as he writes on both whisky and beer.

[Ed]

Hello All,
I am off beer at the moment. I drink mostly Japanese beer, Asahi Super Dry, Sapporo, Yebisu All Malt (Sapporo) and sometime Asahi Black Beer or Yebisu Black Beer. Have any of you beer connoisseurs tried these? How do they stack up against the beers you have been talking about? I haven't even heard of most of them. (If I ever see them in a high-end department store they will probably be 700 to 1,000 yen each.)
Ed

[hpulley]

I enjoy Guinness and a local stout, Sleeman Fine Porter. I don't as much enjoy St. Amborse Oatmeal Stout.

I also enjoy a decent lager or Pilsner, though more in the summer.

I have had Asahi Super Dry. It is good but a little drier than I usually enjoy. Sapporo is better. Both are often made in the Czech republic now.

Mostly scotch for me though.

Harry

[rthomson]

Hi Christian,

I see that you're from Norway so I'm wondering if you've tried Sinebrychoff Porter. It's from Finland and it's a porter with far different character from the ones in the U.S. I'd say it's more vinous, with slight fruity/floral aroma and some roasted malt, mocha flavor. Much more complex than ours (and I'm a big fan of some of the U.S. porters, Sierra Nevada, Catamount, etc). I think it would go quite nicely with an Islay, perhaps the Uigeadail, or maybe the Laphroaig 10yo.

Ron

[Mr Fjeld]

Hi Christian,

I see that you're from Norway so I'm wondering if you've tried Sinebrychoff Porter. It's from Finland and it's a porter with far different character from the ones in the U.S. I'd say it's more vinous, with slight fruity/floral aroma and some roasted malt, mocha flavor. Much more complex than ours (and I'm a big fan of some of the U.S. porters, Sierra Nevada, Catamount, etc). I think it would go quite nicely with an Islay, perhaps the Uigeadail, or maybe the Laphroaig 10yo.

Ron

Hi Ron!
I'm afraid I haven't had the pleasure of trying this beer! Can't say I've seen it here in Bergen but it might be available other places. Think I'll have to look for it in restaurants and bars - difficult name to remember though
The US porters also sounds promising and I've read they have much in common with my own favourite the Nøgne Ø!

Skål!
Christian

[Deactivated Member]

Ron, Sinebrychoff is from Finland. I think we would all enjoy it with a dram, since we all like a malt with a nice Finnish!

Harry, I have to say that to my taste, there's something odd about most Canadian micros. Maybe it's the barley used (echoing the Glen Breton experience?). One excellent exception, though, is St-Ambroise Blonde, a fine pale ale with a proportion of wheat in the mash. The bilingual label is an interesting lesson in the problems of translation--"pale ale" is translated as "bière blonde", there being apparently no French word for "ale", and the "pale" being taken rather too literally (pale ales are amber-colored, pale compared to the 19th-century English brown ales with which they competed). A pale ale is not a blond beer! In any case, this is my beer of choice when enjoying a dram at L'Île Noire or Hurley's in Montréal.

And then there's Unibroue, prize-winning brewers of Belgian-style ales, in Chambly, near Montréal. Not my particular style, but well-regarded stuff.

[JimHall]

I use to drink a lot of beer or rather Lager but then found my love for whisky.. i don't really appreciate beer but may drink a couple now and then just to quench my thirst. I think it is wrong to assume that whisky lovers are also beer lovers.

[The-Bluebear]

Jim, the haggis is like certain other creatures in that it will shed body parts when alarmed. Lizards, for example, will shed their tails when threatened, but the haggis will also shed its legs. The haggis is very unusual in one respect; it will also shed its legs and tail when very relaxed.This is a major factor in a method of catching a haggis that guarentees a tasty dish and is much kinder than the hunt. Trapping relies on the haggis's predilection for Usquebah (Gaelic word meaning the water of life - Whisky.)


This method involves digging a hole just before dark and leaving an open bottle of whisky in it. The haggis dozes in the heather during the day and forages by night. Its keen sense of smell allows it to detect whisky, which it is very fond of, at a considerable distance. When the haggis smells the whisky it gets into the hole and drinks the whisky down. Having drunk the whisky it becomes very relaxed and sheds its legs (perhaps the origin of references to being legless Jim) Being unable to climb back out of the hole it falls into a drunken stupor and in the morning the Laird's man (known as a Ghillie) simply picks the unconscious or hungover haggis from the hole. The haggis is in such a state that it is not aware of what is going on, so it suffers none of the fear and distress caused by the hunting method.

Please remember that taking a haggis, by any method, without permission is poaching. Anyone caught poaching is likely to be prosecuted and fined or even imprisoned (and the fate of haggis poachers on Clan Campbell land is so unspeakable as to not bear mentioning!).

See you on our next tasting adventure Jim....

[Tom]

hmm, nice to see our belgian beers are known. Because thats where i must dissagree with Admiral. Im not a patriot at all and i dont even like Belgium in general, but we do make the best beer in the world. and not only the best, but also the most different kinds of beer.
I have tryed and abandonded the principle to drink beer and whisky hand in hand, although it is how i started out drinking blends. (In scotland they all seem to do it). But i can get into you point of view. Some beers are quite malty and can accompanie a malty or spirity dram. Since you obviously like this i would suggest some of our triple beers. They dont taste as strong as you'd expect but they have a very long aftertaste and i seriously doubt you will drink 4. I will try this once this weekend, a Triple Westmalle with an islay hand in hand. but i doubt i will like it.
I'd like to end with this: people abandon Stella and heineken and for christs sake try a Jupiler. It is our basic pils here served in the area and its the best of all the basic pils. its cheap and everyone likes it. i have no idea why the hell everybody tastes Stella instead, Stella gives you a headache for crying out loud! try having 15 Stella's and 15 jupilers (um, not on the same day), i tell you you will have less trouble the next day with Jupiler then with Stella wich makes the hangovers just terrible.
You dont know anything about belgian beers if you havent tasted our humble jupiler.
i only say this because wherever i go in whatever country i taste the regional beers. And often im in a hot discussion of what is the better (particulary with germans) beer. and up to date i havent found a beer that can match our simple Jupiler. The solution to this is that in the summer when we go back to Scotland, im bringing a crate of Jupiler with me and prove it for once and for all!

[Aidan]

Yes, I think it's a fact that Belgium produces the most differnt kinds of beers. I don't really like thier fruit beers, but, as I said before, the do have some of the best beers in the world.

Tom - tell me about lambic beers. I think that's what they#'re called. I had one or two and they were really good.

[rthomson]

I will second your praise of Jupiler. It is a fine beer and I had many when I was in Belgium. I don't know all the reasons why but the availability of Stella in the UK and US is far greater than Jupiler. So the reason behind the popularity it may be more availability than quality (this from the country where Bud is king!).

There are so many fine beers in Belgium. Where do you even start? I remember a night when a group of young Irish people residing in Antwerp took a liking to me for some reason and insisted on buying me Grimbergen Triple all night! Ok, so I don't remember that night but reliable sources tell me how I raved about Grimbergen through the course of the evening and couldn't get enough of it.

Ron

[Tom]

Lambic is the base for many beers.
the two best known are geuze and Kriek Lambic (cherry beer)
Geuze is the favorite from my brother in law, personally i find it alitlle sour. but then again, most beers based on Lambic taste sour.
Here you can find anything about it: http://www.cantillon.be

[Deactivated Member]

I would not gainsay anyone who says Belgian beers are the best in the world; there is no doubt that Belgium has a brewing heritage like no other country. But for me, a British cask ale is it. Timothy Taylor's Landlord is the best there is, in my mind. (And is it only coincidence that the English make Landlord and the Scots make Tennent's?)

[Ed]

(And is it only coincidence that the English make Landlord and the Scots make Tennent's?)

Boo! Hiss! Groan!
Ed

[Deactivated Member]

(And is it only coincidence that the English make Landlord and the Scots make Tennent's?)

Boo! Hiss! Groan!
Ed

Ed, I am so gratified! That is precisely the reaction for which I've been yearning, for all these months!

[Ed]

Hello Mr TattieHeid,
You're welcome!
I would have thrown something heavy at you had you been in the room! Have you by any chance read Spider Robinson's series, Callahan's Bar? Lots of bad groaners in there.
Oh, and wagon trains and, I think, wedding trains can meander.
Ed

[Rhys MacArthur]

Just as you Aussies and Belgiums do not want your beer to be classified by the swill that is exported in huge quantities, do not judge US beer by our swill. Where I live, Washigton state, in the Pacific Northwest, we have some of the finest beers ever to grace a glass. Most towns have their own brewery, producing their very own craft beers available locally and in wider release. Granted, we have very few 'original' styles, steam beer, spruce beer, and the infamous raw cane sugar beer. But our local breweries do an outstanding job of producing a superior brew and have won quite a few awards. Right now I am a fan of Lagunitas Brewing and especially there Brown SHugga, a brown ale that has a large quantity of raw cane sugar thrown in, and their Censored copper ale. Dicks Brewing of Centralia and Fish Brewing of Olympia (Hometown Hero!) are also perennial favorites of mine, with the Organic Amber of Fish being a particularly well received brew. Orchard Street Brewing of Bellingham also has a very good Stock Ale and Elysian Brewing of Seattle has several good offerings. Rogue Brewing of Oregon has many fine craft brews, including one of my favorites the Hazelnut Stout and Deadguy Ales.
The only thing we haven;t been able to improve upon is Scotch, but some of our bourbon is mighty tasty!

[Admiral]

Do any of you brew your own beer? I've done a few homebrews, and the results have been very, very drinkable. It's amazing how clean and crisp a beer can be when there's no preservatives or anything in it!

Alas, local laws prevent me from trying my hand at home distilling!

Cheers,
Admiral

[Crispy Critter]

The only places I know of that allow home distilling are New Zealand (few if any restrictions that I'm aware of), and France (you must notify the taxman in advance and pay rather hefty taxes on it, and you must use produce from your own property, so you're likely to be making brandy instead of whisky, unless you grow grain).

Are there any others?

[TheSwampFox]

Crispy Critter, while i am not completely knowledgable about home distilleries i think that in WA it is legal to brew and distill provided you do not sell and or produce above a certain volume.

Regarding the beer and whisky combo, in my short adventures i have found that the Bowmore 12 goes well with Deschute's Obsidian Stout. In my opinion the stong flavors of each complement the other very well, imho.

[Deactivated Member]

Ah, I love to down a Dead Guy now and then. The Pacific Northwest is indeed a beer mecca, and Portland, Oregon might be the best beer town in the US. Go to any McMenamin's brewpub. "Brewpub chain" has always struck me as an oxymoronic expression, but McMenamin's do it right.

In Pont L'Évêque, in the heart of the Pays D'Auge, Calvados, Normandy, I was offered a home-distilled calvados, which was pretty damn good. I was under the impression that it was illicit, but maybe I was mistaken. Anyway, it is done.

[rthomson]

Crispy Critter, while i am not completely knowledgable about home distilleries i think that in WA it is legal to brew and distill provided you do not sell and or produce above a certain volume.

In Washington it's illegal to be in possession of "any still or other device for the production of spirituous liquor", without a license from the state. However, what I find confusing is a phrase from that same statute: or shall have in his possession or under his control any mash capable of being distilled into spirituous liquor except as provided in RCW 66.12.130. The RCW 66... exception referenced does not address the homebrewing of beer. Any beer made at one point is a "mash capable of being distilled" yet I know that homebrewing (can't sell any amount of it though) is legal in Washington.

My guess is that at the time of the writing, the lawmakers involved did not know the similarities between homebrewing and distillation.

Ron

[Admiral]

the lawmakers involved did not know the similarities between homebrewing and distillation.

.........and they're probably the type that don't inhale, too.

Cheers,
Admiral